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Perhaps. Not for public consumption ATM.
Originally Posted by ragman1
I do play with a lot with a cellist professionally.
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12-04-2016 04:48 AM
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This sentence rubs me the wrong way ... playing the three finger style is not about excuses or laziness. I played four finger style since I started in my early teens but about a decade ago my wrist started hurting and I had to rethink my playing. Originally Posted by mrcee
If you play without any vibrato then your argument might have some merit tho it is still very academic but having your hand positioned in the hand shake position as opposed to the more classical position where you fingers point upwards make one hell of a difference once vibrato comes into the equation. Your vibrato just becomes much more effortless as it is a much more natural wrist movement and you also get more power. Once you're in the hand shake position the three finger approach is more natural in many situations.
Anyways as said the handshake position spares me a lot of wrist pain these days and being a favorite with players from Wes to Yngwie it can't be all that incorrect
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I started with classical guitar lessons for a few years before I did anything else. So I had to use 4 fingers from the start, it seems completely natural to me. But I do use the 3 finger style a bit as well, depending on what I'm playing. This might vary from phrase to phrase in the same solo. Originally Posted by mrcee
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It such a small adjustment to go from one to the other and it makes a notable change to what you saying musically, so off course this is how it should me be imho Originally Posted by grahambop
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Tai Chi master William CC Chen calls the 'pinky' and ring fingers 'pre-action fingers' ('Yin fingers').
Tai Chi Fingers by William C. C. Chen
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Yeah Originally Posted by mrcee
Charlie christian
Wes Montgomery
Miles Okazaki
Grant Green
Peter Bernstein
Pat Metheny
Dave Cliff
Jim Mullen
Bunch of layabouts
Oh hang most of them are perfectly capable of using four fingers for chord work. So why is it they favour three for melodies? (Miles O wrote an essay about it. He switched to three fingers I believe.)
EDIT: Miles is an interesting case because while one could consider the other players self taught and therefore dismiss the approach (a mistake in my opinion, but let's go with it) Miles made the conscious decision to relearn in this way.
Anyone who knows his teaching and music will realise he thinks about things in tremendous depth.Last edited by christianm77; 12-04-2016 at 09:16 AM.
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You're absolutely right. And it was meant to rub the wrong way. I have a bit of an attitude around this subject because in the early 70s I lost close to 1/2" off the tip of my left hand pinky. And almost lost my index finger, but that got saved. This throws the geometry of my hand off a bit so I'm prone to wrist issues as well. So I empathize with anyone having physical limitations forcing them to change their playing style. You need to adapt to what you've got. I love the nylon string guitar but can't really do it justice with my short pinky. Django was hardly making excuses or being lazy for playing with 2 fingers and either am I if I avoid chords using big stretches. I just can't do it. But I use what I've got which is 3 and 3/4 fingers. And, sure, I'll use 3 fingers sometimes or only 2 if that's what's appropriate for the moment. I've had to definitely rethink my playing. I try to practice for a few hours a day and I'll sometimes play using only my ring finger and pinky to strengthen it. So again at the risk of sounding unkind, when I hear players with no physical limitations say they don't use the pinky because it's naturally some percentage weaker than the others I feel this is making excuses. IMO to completely avoid the use of the pinky (assuming that there are no physical issues) is lazy and less than great technique. And IMO no guitarist no matter how good or famous they are is playing at their peak potential using only 3 fingers exclusively. I don't care if they're Eric Clapton or Pat Martino. If classical players can and need to use 4 fingers (maybe not ALL of the time. that should go without saying) than so should everyone else. Originally Posted by Lobomov
This sentence rubs me the wrong way ... playing the three finger style is not about excuses or laziness. I played four finger style since I started in my early teens but about a decade ago my wrist started hurting and I had to rethink my playing.
If you play without any vibrato then your argument might have some merit tho it is still very academic but having your hand positioned in the hand shake position as opposed to the more classical position where you fingers point upwards make one hell of a difference once vibrato comes into the equation. Your vibrato just becomes much more effortless as it is a much more natural wrist movement and you also get more power. Once you're in the hand shake position the three finger approach is more natural in many situations.
Anyways as said the handshake position spares me a lot of wrist pain these days and being a favorite with players from Wes to Yngwie it can't be all that incorrect
Great versatile guitarists like studio players seem to always have great pinky technique because they're being called on to play all kinds of things that might not necessarily be in their little musical comfort zone.
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Mrcee I shall link to Miles's article on Charlie Christian because he sums up the counter argument. This is a very boring debate because I think ultimately people have already decided.
Stompin’ at Minton’s (by Miles Okazaki) | DO THE M@TH
IMO the history is too much to ignore. Three fingers works great for a number of reasons given in the article above. I play more classical left hand for jazz, but I certainly wouldn't be arrogant enough to dismiss the alternative approach.
I think it gives the player a fat sound.
Anyway there's no reason you can't play both ways.
Obviously no session player is going to be playing blues lead or funk rhythm with their thumb behind the neck. OTOH they won't be playing superclean arpeggios of stretch chords with three fingers. Common sense right?
I just find it interesting that increasingly jazz guitar is seen as being more like classical than blues from a left hand perspective.Last edited by christianm77; 12-04-2016 at 09:27 AM.
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Interesting. Thanks for posting the article. And I agree that this is a boring debate but I don't find much in the article that makes a strong case for the advantages of a three finger soloing technique. Originally Posted by christianm77
"Using primarily three fingers does not at all limit speed or harmonic options — look at all the stuff drummers can play with two sticks! And the third finger easily spans four frets when the hand is angled towards the guitar’s body." (when do drummers ever exercise harmonic options?)
and:
"There is no known video footage of Charlie Christian, but the consensus among players is that he used a majority of downstrokes with the right hand, and mostly three fingers with the left hand." (it obviously worked for him including the all downstrokes)
With all great respect Christian I fail to see how the above quotes and a couple of others present or "sum up the counter argument." Again, a great article which I'm going to forward to a few friends.
I just feel that a musician needs to use all of the tools available to him/her in order to reach not only their personal potential but to move the music, and the guitar, beyond where it is now, which is largely based on zoot suit jitterbug music.
And sometimes it's nice to play "superclean arpeggios of stretch chords".
Some of my favorite players use only three fingers for melodies and I think I can understand the advantage for a lot of things but I still stand with my opinion that using four is overall a better way. Certainly in terms of versatility. Being versatile and able to play things that aren't in one's normal style is not a bad thing and will broaden an artist's playing.Last edited by mrcee; 12-04-2016 at 10:36 AM.
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Attached a link on my previous comment...
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I don't understand what makes 3 finger technique? This is sincere question.
Just watched Okazaki clip from a 2014 gig, and he clearly plays with pinky. Watched his instructional video from 2015 and he plays G major scale in 3rds using his pinky, what's the catch?
VladanMovies BlogSpot
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Here's the video of Miles playing Charlie Christian's famous "Stompin' at the Savoy" solo. Good stuff. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Cool, OK, I dunno. Maybe he just does that for Charlie Christian solos. Originally Posted by Vladan
As discussed above (!) the actual root of the matter is possibly not what fingers you use but how much you pronate your wrist. It just so happens that if you do pronate your wrist heavily with your thumb over the top (handshake) it becomes possible to play bigger stretches with your stronger ring finger, so you will naturally tend to that.
There are some Wes things, for instance that I think require the little finger, but his pinky is not on an equal footing with his other fingers like in Pasquale Grasso's technique, say.
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A few things...
Hand angle
The usual advice is to place the thumb opposite the second finger. This to me is an artifact of the P3FT (predominantly three fingered technique). It forces a shift in angle of the hand so that the fingers point diagonally up the neck somewhat. This angle helps when using three fingers because it reduces the requirement to spread the fingers apart when spanning two frets - it keeps the fingers more approximately parallel to each other. A side effect of this results in a problem engaging the pinky because the hand angle acts to pull the shorter pinky away from the finger board.
With A4FT (absolute four fingered technique) the physical thumb position is more under the first finger or slightly further toward the nut. This changes the hand angle and allows the fingers to address the finger board directly from the side without any diagonal offset. This geometry promotes the use of the pinky.
Pinky strength and coordination
It is not true that the pinky is the weakest finger; it is the strongest. If you imagine holding a bat, racket, or club, or imagine pulling a rope, you will understand immediately that the majority of strength is from the pinky, followed by the ring finger.
Not only do the pinky and ring finger share some tendon connectivity (making for a sense of low coordination and the illusion of weakness) but all the tendons of the fingers are hampered in the wrist by connective tissue. This connective tissue breaks down and disappears as one plays for decades. You may demonstrate this to yourself right now by holding your left and right hands in upright fists in front of you and wiggling your fingers of each fist. Bend your right fist upward and notice that the tendons just below your wrist comprise a bundle, but the same on the left wrist displays the individual tendons, and if your skin is fair enough you will notice additional veins there compared to the right wrist.
This is a long term mechanical change in the left hand from which much potential facility arises.
P3FT following chord shapes
Does this make sense? When a three finger player plays a chord that uses four fingers, wouldn't following the chord shape mean using four fingers, like an arpeggio? Does it make sense that a three fingered player would use two systems, one for placing the fingers for chords and another for playing those same notes in the same pattern using only three fingers?
I am not saying they don't do this, only that I think the theory that they are following the chord shapes is not quite correct. I am inclined to think that what is being followed is the conceptual shape, not the physical shape. Do you see how this results in the same thing but skips the need to hold two versions of grasping the finger board?
So I'm suggesting it does make sense, but not for the apparent reason.
Personally, I can't imagine myself playing without using all four fingers in all locations at all times without exception. That is the mechanical basis from which I throw my fingers to the frets in accordance with my conceptual basis. The result is that the highest note on each string for any phrase or line in every position is usually my fourth finger.
Lately, I have been using increasingly more chord shapes to form lines where the chord shapes span five or six frets - I not only use my pinky, if I had a second one I would use that, too. A three fingered approach attempting these "long" chords would need to be hopping from the lower half to the upper half... which I think is what happens. I hear Wes doing it as a result of very carefully crafting his hand movements to stage his fingers for the next notes.
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Bass players play with 1 2 4 - makes sense - the power grip of the hand is 3 + 4 together, 1 and 2 are the more dexterous manipulators.
That said sheer strength is less an issue on guitar (with modern set ups) than independence of movement.
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How to finger major scale, or pentatonic box with 3 fingers, no pinky? Is it even possible without moving through positions?
Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube
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Straight no chaser is a good example
Very chromatic , lots of semitones
Should work four fingered right ?
If I play it with four fingers it comes out
Too 'stiff' , I actually prefer the way
It sounds three fingers with some slurs etc
I'd be very interested in others' views on
Playing SNChaser
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I think we would need two versions, audio only, by one competent player who can do it good enough both ways and a poll, which one we find better to listen to.
VladanMovies BlogSpot
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I'm game Originally Posted by Vladan
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I guess three fingers players do not refer to position...How to finger major scale, or pentatonic box with 3 fingers, no pinky? Is it even possible without moving through positions?
IMHO if one is fluent with 4 fingers - I mean really fluent and can make slides and shifts easily... it's not a problem for him to play any scale with 3 fingers... but it will be different from what is called 'three-fingers techique' as I understand it
I would describe 3 fingers as kind of 'authentic blues players technique'... it is connected with style...
I do not have accuarate information but it seems to me that it came to jazz guitar with emergence of natural blues players into jazz (like Wes or CC)...
With development of jazz language 3 fingers technique gradually got adopted to new conditions... some players use pinky occasionally... (like PM or GB)... some just do the same thing...
I just believe that it is worth to look at - especially if you're interested in historically accurate performance of the old styles..
but otherwise.. today it is less important than ever before...
The difference is often in the lack of musical maturity to me... when you play 4 fingers easily you may feel more agile more fluid than and it may cause uncontrolled speed and lines with lots of notes and no sense in it...
3-fingers puts certain limitation in that sense at this point...
But we should not rely on technique in that sense
To me Sco is one of the modern players who plays 4 fingers fluently but sounds often as if he plays old school 3 fingers style
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To me the choice should be not about 3 or 4 fingers... but about articualtion and phrasing... is you need slurs and slides you do it and you do not think if it's 3 fingers of 4...Straight no chaser is a good example
Very chromatic , lots of semitones
Should work four fingered right ?
If I play it with four fingers it comes out
Too 'stiff' , I actually prefer the way
It sounds three fingers with some slurs etc
I'd be very interested in others' views on
Playing SNChaser
I play chromatic line in Straight No Chaser with one 1st finger
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This is highly questionable. The way I tend to look at it, maybe they not refer to positions "as we know them", but I suspect they depend even more on physical side of the thing, like memorized movable cells, patterns, fingerings and regions of the neck where mentioned can be comfortably applied. With standard 4 fingers approach there are images of couple bigger patterns of note's relationship superimposed over the neck to wade within and around in a search for own paths. With 3 fingers, it seems, each of those is split into several comfortable cells, which can make things sound better in shorter turn, as it's always comfortable, but may be restrictive in a long run, in regard to pushing the boundaries of what comfortable is. Originally Posted by Jonah
I think this correlates to your idea:
Simply mathematically, you can make less combinations of 3 elements than you can make of 4, in this case different fingers before you start sliding them over regions. As you say in your next post, if the point is in slurs and slides, it does not matter how many fingers you slide around and use for slurs. Originally Posted by Jonah
I'm also not into history of Jazz, not at that level. I don't know what type of guitarists there were originally and what type emerged later. I always thought first they played the blues, in a way forcing it over compositions of "common practice" type, before sense of style developed enough for to create original compositions from zero. Originally Posted by Jonah
So, I'd say 3 fingers thing could be the original one, which of course don't mean a thing if ... I mean, as you said, technique and physicalities should not define the musical outcome and it could only be important if you want to be historically accurate. Which, being historically accurate, is a nonsense, IMO.Last edited by Vladan; 12-05-2016 at 07:48 AM.
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I really don't know how this subject got to 14 pages! Most people just use what's comfortable for them.
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it's very simple... just like sitting in a bar with nothing to talk aboutI really don't know how this subject got to 14 pages!
I would not be so sure about it)))Most people just use what's comfortable for them.
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While it's possible to play the same notes in multiple locations on the guitar, each fingering choice has it's one unique sound. (There's a great chapter in Jim Hall's "Exploring Jazz Guitar"...) Essentially, your fingering IS your phrasing. Study the fingerings of the players who's phrasing you admire. Their choices are not random.
PK
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