Three Finger Guitar Technique

[2handband]

I don't see how three note per string patterns would restrict you to playing samey lines... it's simply a method of fingering the scale. Because of it's physical layout it does lend itself to fast lines, but that doesn't mean that's what you have to do with it.

Think of it this way: I can play any melody using a three note per string pattern that you can play with any other... and the nature of it also allows me to shred like a demon if that's what is required. That's the point: versatility.

[MarkRhodes]

Think of it this way: I can play any melody using a three note per string pattern that you can play with any other... and the nature of it also allows me to shred like a demon if that's what is required. That's the point: versatility.

I'm willing to think of it that way. I learned 3 nps scale patterns a long time ago and spent time with them, and also with Frank Gambale's first book. ("Speed Picking," I think.) But I didn't care for the resulting sound.

I don't think it's just about the number of notes on a string one plays but also the number of notes one picks and the number of notes one picks with a downstroke. (Not that there should be a specific number, but that downstrokes should outnumber upstrokes, as they give lines "more definition," as Joe Pass used to say. He changed strings on a downstroke, regardless of which direction he was going, for that reason. Most 3 nps player remind of that great phrase form Tennyson, the "murmuring of innumerable bees."

[christianm77]

I don't see how three note per string patterns would restrict you to playing samey lines... it's simply a method of fingering the scale. Because of it's physical layout it does lend itself to fast lines, but that doesn't mean that's what you have to do with it.

Think of it this way: I can play any melody using a three note per string pattern that you can play with any other... and the nature of it also allows me to shred like a demon if that's what is required. That's the point: versatility.

How about bop heads etc? Doesn't the 3nps thing become a bit redundant if you are not actually playing scales?

[MarkRhodes]

Now I just tend to use whatever is required by the context, without even thinking about it. So I guess I'm switching constantly between the '3 fingers' approach and the '4 fingers' approach during a solo. To be honest I'm not even aware of it.

Maybe I'm just a bit odd in that I don't think about any of this stuff very much!

Makes perfect sense to me. The reason I started thinking about (and consciously working on) three-finger technique is that some things I played with a four-finger approach just didn't sound the way I wanted them to. So I gave a three-finger approach a go and that improved the sound a lot.

Also---and I don't know how to explain this because I don't understand it--- when I play some lines with a three-finger approach that I used to play with four, it seems easier on my left hand even though more shifting is involved.

Finally, when I asked myself, "Why the focus on minimizing left hand shifting?" I didn't have a good answer. It's not like shifting is especially hard. What gives me fits is long stretches that unbalance then hand.

[2handband]

@markrhodes: A lot of such players DO sound all wheedly wheedly, but I contend that it doesn't have to be that way. As for picking direction, I don't agree with Joe Pass... or with the strict alternate picking approach most rock players take. I'm closer to Frank Gambale... always go the shortest route. If you're doing a string shift from a thicker to thinner string it's a downstroke regardless of the direction of the last stroke. If going from thinner to thicker it's an upstroke regardless of the direction of the last one. I don't agree at all on the articulation issue; nobody ever accused Malmsteen of a lack of articulation, just to take an example. You can accent an upstroke just as well as a downstroke. Nobody ever told me to pick this way; but I had a guitar method when I was starting out that told me to always alternate pick and I was like no, that's stupid. For the first two weeks I had to plan out literally every pickstroke but after that it was intuitive. Always take the shortest route.

@christianm77: that works great till you land a gig that is not bebop. You have to master both arpeggios AND scalar soloing. Again: versatility. Last week I sat in with a blues band. This weekend I did two classic rock gigs. Wednesday I'll be playing a solo gig... lots of fingerpicking. Next weekend I'm playing with a jazz/funk/blues band.

[princeplanet]

......
@christianm77: that works great till you land a gig that is not bebop. You have to master both arpeggios AND scalar soloing......

No offence, but it seems like you don't really play Bop. 3nps is not really a technique used, not when you will play 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 notes per string all the time. Bop players seldom play many arp or scale notes in a row without a whole slew of ways of interrupting the line, chromatically or diatonically, employing a number of devices that characterise the Jazz "language".

Rock technique, and I've been saying this for years, is not helpful when learning to phrase in the Jazz "style", infact, I found it a hindrance. It can take only a couple of years to get "impressive" rock technique to sound pretty close to the "advanced" Rock guys (Satriani, Malmsteen etc) especially with low action, light gauge strings and distortion. I wasn't alone, there were hundreds of 16 year olds who had it down....

But raise the action, go for much thicker strings with a clean tone and try to sound like Wes, Martino or Benson etc improvising over heavy duty changes playing sophisticated lines (not just scales/arps) drawing from a ton of vocabulary with clean execution..... If it takes 20 years to get close, then the first 10 years goes into undoing the bad habits you picked up playing widdly-diddly Rock BS...

[Vladan]

I think 2handband means 3 notes per string not only for scales, but in general. You organize your playing that way.
Of course youdon't insist on it, it' not a rule you have to obey, it' s just a choice available.

VladanMovies BlogSpot

[2handband]

No offence, but it seems like you don't really play Bop. 3nps is not really a technique used, not when you will play 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 notes per string all the time. Bop players seldom play many arp or scale notes in a row without a whole slew of ways of interrupting the line, chromatically or diatonically, employing a number of devices that characterise the Jazz "language".

Rock technique, and I've been saying this for years, is not helpful when learning to phrase in the Jazz "style", infact, I found it a hindrance. It can take only a couple of years to get "impressive" rock technique to sound pretty close to the "advanced" Rock guys (Satriani, Malmsteen etc) especially with low action, light gauge strings and distortion. I wasn't alone, there were hundreds of 16 year olds who had it down....

But raise the action, go for much thicker strings with a clean tone and try to sound like Wes, Martino or Benson etc improvising over heavy duty changes playing sophisticated lines (not just scales/arps) drawing from a ton of vocabulary with clean execution..... If it takes 20 years to get close, then the first 10 years goes into undoing the bad habits you picked up playing widdly-diddly Rock BS...

I get what you're saying, and I do understand bop although I can't be said to play it well. Here's the thing though: if you're working (and certainly if you wanna work enough to quit your day job), the vast majority of your jobs will require you to play diatonically. You have to be able to think in those terms, and use the tools that make you effective.

[MarkRhodes]

@markrhodes: A lot of such players DO sound all wheedly wheedly, but I contend that it doesn't have to be that way. As for picking direction, I don't agree with Joe Pass... or with the strict alternate picking approach most rock players take. I'm closer to Frank Gambale... always go the shortest route..

Jimmy Bruno teaches that too, taking the shortest route, in his book "The Art of Picking." He's a great player, no doubt.

Gambale is a fast, fluid player but I don't care for what he happens to play. I remember buying his "Brave New Guitar" (1985) and being knocked out by the fluid speed but not caring much for the music. (In general, the more something sounds like fusion, the less I like it.)

[christianm77]

@markrhodes: A lot of such players DO sound all wheedly wheedly, but I contend that it doesn't have to be that way. As for picking direction, I don't agree with Joe Pass... or with the strict alternate picking approach most rock players take.

I'm closer to Frank Gambale... always go the shortest route. If you're doing a string shift from a thicker to thinner string it's a downstroke regardless of the direction of the last stroke.

If going from thinner to thicker it's an upstroke regardless of the direction of the last one. I don't agree at all on the articulation issue; nobody ever accused Malmsteen of a lack of articulation, just to take an example.

Yngwie Malmsteen apparently is not a two way economy picker. His technique is actually closer to Joe Pass's (DWPS) than Gambale's. I was quite surprised by that, I'd always been told Yngwie was a sweep picker...

Incidentally, that's the approach I tend to use. I find it very good for articulation.

Quite a few jazzers use true two way economy picking though. Moreno, Chuck Wayne's school (including Pasquale Grasso), Jimmy Raney (my favourite.)

There's no consensus on picking within jazz. I think you develop a technique that works for you to play the lines you hear in your head.

You can accent an upstroke just as well as a downstroke. Nobody ever told me to pick this way; but I had a guitar method when I was starting out that told me to always alternate pick and I was like no, that's stupid. For the first two weeks I had to plan out literally every pickstroke but after that it was intuitive. Always take the shortest route.

Working on accenting upstrokes is one of the best bits of practice I have done.

@christianm77: that works great till you land a gig that is not bebop. You have to master both arpeggios AND scalar soloing. Again: versatility. Last week I sat in with a blues band. This weekend I did two classic rock gigs. Wednesday I'll be playing a solo gig... lots of fingerpicking. Next weekend I'm playing with a jazz/funk/blues band.

Eh? Not quite with you there - I don't think I suggested a school of technique .. thought I was asking a question about 3nps as applied to bop lines. It kind of is a jazz guitar forum.

Re: versatility... In my experience, guitarists who can play great time, have great ears, listen, make the band sound good and can read dots always get booked. The heavily gigging guitarists I know seem to use all kind of techniques.

[Lobomov]

But raise the action, go for much thicker strings with a clean tone and try to sound like Wes, Martino or Benson etc

Stupid question of the day:
Why do you need to raise action in order to play jazz?


(and don't thicker strings allow an even lower action as their higher tension makes them vibrate less?)

[christianm77]

Stupid question of the day:
Why do you need to raise action in order to play jazz?


(and don't thicker strings allow an even lower action as their higher tension makes them vibrate less?)

I like a lowish action with heavy strings.

Ed Bickert is one of my favourite straight ahead guys and uses .10s.

Do what works for you, but don't expect other people's amp settings to work for you haha!

[grahambop]

Stupid question of the day:
Why do you need to raise action in order to play jazz?


(and don't thicker strings allow an even lower action as their higher tension makes them vibrate less?)

I think a slightly higher action helps create a bit more attack and definition to the notes, I guess the fingertips have to press home a little harder.

I once lowered the action on my 175 down to super-slinky low (it could do it with no problem), but I felt it made my playing go a bit sloppy somehow. So I put it back up again.

Bear in mind I am talking about fractional adjustments though. I use flatwound .012s by the way.

[2handband]

I think a slightly higher action helps create a bit more attack and definition to the notes, I guess the fingertips have to press home a little harder.

I once lowered the action on my 175 down to super-slinky low (it could do it with no problem), but I felt it made my playing go a bit sloppy somehow. So I put it back up again.

Bear in mind I am talking about fractional adjustments though. I use flatwound .012s by the way.

I like my action as high as I can get away with and still be able to play everything I need to. The more room the strings have to vibrate the better the tone and sustain.

[princeplanet]

I get what you're saying, and I do understand bop although I can't be said to play it well. Here's the thing though: if you're working (and certainly if you wanna work enough to quit your day job), the vast majority of your jobs will require you to play diatonically. You have to be able to think in those terms, and use the tools that make you effective.

Well yeah, but why come on a Jazz Forum to tell us this?

[princeplanet]

I like my action as high as I can get away with and still be able to play everything I need to. The more room the strings have to vibrate the better the tone and sustain.

Agreed

[2handband]

Well yeah, but why come on a Jazz Forum to tell us this?

Actually I came here to comment on another thread altogether... one that doesn't seem to have any interest left I'm afraid. And now I'm tooling around and just hanging out. I do have some jazz chops; I've made it a point to be able to fake my way through anything well enough to get paid for it. But I can't be said to be a real jazz musician.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Are you sure??

But -- that guitar has a pointy headstock. I'm pretty sure it's illegal in 17 states and the territory of Guam to only use three fingers on one of those.

[MarkRhodes]

Actually I came here to comment on another thread altogether... one that doesn't seem to have any interest left I'm afraid. And now I'm tooling around and just hanging out. I do have some jazz chops; I've made it a point to be able to fake my way through anything well enough to get paid for it. But I can't be said to be a real jazz musician.

I'm glad you're here and hope you stick around. Lots of us hereabouts played other sorts of music before wading into jazzier waters.

[Nestoguitar]

Oh no

Please don't tell me I wasted $14 bucks on the D'addario Hand/Finger strengthen and exercise thingy.

Seriously; I am a four finger guy, but recognize the advantage of either approach. However I felt that it was easier to try strengthen my pinky than converting totally to 3 fingers. I've had the exerciser for just a couple months and it certainly helps. Most of the improvements seemed to have come within the first two or three weeks though, and slowed done since then.

[christianm77]

Oh no

Please don't tell me I wasted $14 bucks on the D'addario Hand/Finger strengthen and exercise thingy.

Maybe you did, because your problem is more likely to be that you press down too hard with the other fingers.

[Nestoguitar]

Hi Christianm

You might be right, my picking technique is light to moderate, which is probably a minimum prerequisite if someone is using four fingers.

It's hard to quantify but I think I've realized maybe a 5 to 10% pinky improvement since I started using the finger strengthener. I did a simple test, when I first started with the exerciser the fingers in my dominate hand were a lot stronger than my non-dominate hand (I'm a leftie so I'm trying to be generic here) and now my fretting hand pinky is actually stronger than my dominate picking hand pinky.

Thanks

[christianm77]

My wife, who is plays cello, has ridiculously strong left hand fingers.

[mrcee]

My wife, who is plays cello, has ridiculously strong left hand fingers.

I marvel at cello players' left hand chops and their use of the pinky. I can't understand why so many guitar players struggle with using all four fingers. I think a lot of it is laziness because you can play with three, and I hear a lot of excuses. A three fingered cello or bassist would look pretty stupid. I would never use a bass player that only used 3 fingers anymore than I would a drummer who didn't use his feet. And it's surprising how many are out there but I don't think any of them get very far and those that I've known usually quit and do something else.

[ragman1]

My wife, who is plays cello, has ridiculously strong left hand fingers.

Now that's interesting. Do we get you playing as a duo then? Could be really nice.

(For what it's worth my grip is a bit powerful too. When we're watching a movie and it's getting a bit exciting and I'm holding her hand (bless) she starts yelping and has to shake it to get the feeling back )