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  1. #26

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    Recorded this with my iTrack Pocket. The guitar was not plugged into the Pocket, so the voice and guitar were captured by the Pocket's external mics. First attempt (with this device) to record talk and playing. I think it came out well enough for what I was trying to do.

    Fingering choices...


  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    The way I was taught by a CAGED guru, the source isn't scales, it's chords.

    Play a D major chord in open position, as Bill Thrasher called them, "play a D cowboy chord". Okay, now play the D minor cowboy chord (open position). Those are both D form chords from the CAGED system. D major7, D7, Dm7, all in open position and all D form. And if you want to approach them with CST, they have different scale fingerings / pitch collections for the major, minor, or dominant versions, but named based on the CAGED chord position, not on a scale. It's a chord grip approach first.

    I think it's an important distinction that changes ones perspective. From the very start one is more aware of chord tones, and ones playing is more chord tone directed (for better or worse).
    Last edited by fep; 03-06-2019 at 01:19 AM.

  4. #28

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    Hey Frank... position playing can also be based on chords... there really isn't any approach difference between playing caged patterns or 7 position chord patterns... Both systems create patterns... just different patterns.

    Personally... every single note I play is a chord. I think most don't realize the chordal aspects of position playing because they didn't get taught that way. (maybe that's why many young guitarist can't comp). Was that the way you were introduced to position playing... through scales only. Gets to that problems of teachers ....not really understanding what they're teaching.

    At what age is the student responsible etc...

    I also like caged sounds and patterns created from. They are very Guitar friendly and open position organization is generally where most guitarist start... seems natural for the instrument. Like playing pentatonics on guitar compared to piano which create much more difficult fingerings... and sax, gets weird in B.

    Anyway... when you eventually get to playing these same patterns using 9th's 11th's and 13th's and chords from Harmonic and melodic minor... it's helpfull to be aware and able to use other shapes along with caged.

    But I definitely like your point about being aware of CHORDS concept.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    The way I was taught by a CAGED guru, the source isn't scales, it's chords.
    That's how I see it. If you know where the root, 3rd and 5th are, you can figure out the rest. ;o)

  6. #30
    Here's what probably should be a more finished version, but I accidentally lined up the world's worst camera angle. Needed to retune by the last pattern as well. I'll see if I can do something better on Friday maybe.



    These are versions of me doing it the way reg talked about in a post above. I can "think" in 7th position pretty well, but I need to work on adding some others to my more solid, go-to positions for sure. I'd appreciate any comments/tips on tone especially. I'm a long-time acoustic guy and too lazy with electric honestly.

    Any comments on any aspect appreciated. Thanks.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Here's what probably should be a more finished version, but I accidentally lined up the world's worst camera angle. Needed to retune by the last pattern as well. I'll see if I can do something better on Friday maybe.



    These are versions of me doing it the way reg talked about in a post above. I can "think" in 7th position pretty well, but I need to work on adding some others to my more solid, go-to positions for sure. I'd appreciate any comments/tips on tone especially. I'm a long-time acoustic guy and too lazy with electric honestly.

    Any comments on any aspect appreciated. Thanks.
    That camera angle is good for watching your right hand. I'm impressed with your right hand technique which is very similar to my go to picking technique (I have three right hand plectrum techniques but my primary one is the same as yours). What you do well that I don't is your hand is quite, compact and efficient. I bounce in and out of the strings too much. I don't see the bounce in your picking, one has to move in a way to avoid the strings when skipping strings, but I don't see any bounce in your technique.

  8. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    That camera angle is good for watching your right hand. I'm impressed with your write hand technique which is very similar to my go to picking technique (I have three right hand plectrum techniques but my primary one is the same as yours). What you do well that I don't is your hand is quite, compact and efficient. I bounce in and out of the strings too much. I don't see the bounce in your picking, one has to move in a way to avoid the strings when skipping strings, but I don't see any bounce in your technique.
    Thanks, Frank. That means a lot coming from you.

    I started that thing a couple of years ago I guess around the time of epic Benson picking discussion. I read up on it some and tried to come up with something that basically works or whatever. My main requirement of myself was that I would generally try to do the angle and NOT think about right-hand much otherwise. I change the grip here and there, from time to time , depending on mood , style music, and how long once been playing etc. I never obsess over it or overanalyze the right hand. The Benson thread cured me of that. :-)

    99% of my focus has been on cleaning up left-hand stuff, and I've just kind of gotten some right hand for free.

    Honestly, it's gonna sound weird, but I think the most helpful thing for me with picking (and everything else really) has been working on subdividing more. I played triplets on everything for a while, and I noticed that the unintended consequence was that my eighth notes sounded much better, (or even quarter notes etc). You subconsciously learn to start planting the pick on specific subdivisions etc. My plectrum "hears" much faster than I could ever think. Anyway, one day I looked down and realized that basically I'm doing reststrokes on a lot of my up-strokes? Weird...

    You are my study group hero by the way. :-) The Frank groups are hands-down the best threads ever. A real forum legacy.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-07-2019 at 10:55 AM.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    You are my study group hero by the way. :-) The Frank groups are hands-down the best threads ever. A real forum legacy.
    Couldn't agree more. Frank (fep) is the king of study group leaders! (Or if 'king' sounds undesirable, 'most effective' should do.)

  10. #34

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    Thanks guys , this is a great community.

    This study group looks really promising... I think it's mostly about getting a good group of participants that stick to it. The material for this study group looks to be capsulized well into sections which I think will work well.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Thanks guys , this is a great community.

    This study group looks really promising... I think it's mostly about getting a good group of participants that stick to it. The material for this study group looks to be capsulized well into sections which I think will work well.
    I think both those elements are important: 1) a good group of participants and 2) bite-size sections of material to work on.

  12. #36
    So it's Thursday. Post more finished versions or different versions of this week if you like, by Sunday.

    Also, begin posting more preliminary versions of the next couple weeks or so as you see fit. Also post thoughts, questions observations and ideas about fingering approaches or anything else related to these upcoming patterns. Thanks.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-07-2019 at 11:14 AM.

  13. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    Some of those exercises include directions to go back and redo the previous exercises with the new pattern. Is that just going to be added into what gets covered in a week or stretch things out another week?
    Ok. So I never fully answered this I guess. I'd like to keep moving as much as possible. Let's see what we can do with the current schedule. I intend to post as much of what I can of patterns 5-8 this upcoming week, including the extra cycles in the "apply the same principles..." subtext for 5 and 6.

    Maybe, if we can't manage some of the extra cycles, just post the basic notated version and include the others in our "review queue"? Let me know your thoughts on this strategy as you work through the material.

  14. #38

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    At that point, I'd suggest that patterns 5 and 6 make a set. 7 and 8 make a set with 9 and 10.

    Similarly, 11 and 12 make a set and 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 make a set.

    .

  15. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    At that point, I'd suggest that patterns 5 and 6 make a set. 7 and 8 make a set with 9 and 10.

    Similarly, 11 and 12 make a set and 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 make a set.

    .
    I agree with all of this structurally. The nerd in me wants to compartmentalize by type somewhat. I also want to keep moving, and I feel that we'll be looking ahead most of the time anyway.

    Pace is the big question mark for me in keeping motivation and interest. If it's too slow, does it bog down? The accountability aspect requires a pace that isn't too fast as well. In the beginning, it may be easier to err on the slower side and pick up the pace as needed, as we get in the groove with the cycles themselves, which are constant throughout the book.

    There are certainly layers of complexity to be added. For myself, playing these in- position for a relatively short time in a busy last week or so, I find myself looking at additional positions etc. I don't know that I'm gonna find myself bored at any particular pace , and I'm always going to be working ahead . There's kind of a readthrough stage and polishing stage /review stage for me, and those are two different places in the book.

    For this week, let's aim for as solid as we can manage with posting on patterns 5 & 6. Maybe consider 7 & 8 somewhat extra credit, and let's offer some feedback on pace. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

    Additionally, please offer thoughts/questions etc on upcoming things you're working on in the more mapping-out stages. For those working ahead in preliminary stages, what are you working on? What are your thoughts?

  16. #40

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    I think the fingering issues we are all having is on #2 . If we count from C to C there are twelve choices to be made as of playing it up or down with respect to the note we're coming from. As octaves are not mentioned ( in bar 3 of the example there are 2 choices for the Bb) I've found myself descending lower and lower on the neck by playing the Bb triad next to the C I started from etc. I didn't like the result nor the direction it was taking the exercise, so I found I like it better when I play in the higher octave instead of the lower when I have to play the Bb triad and the B, by doing so you have the following sequence. I'll post a video when I have a guitar around.

    U U D U D U U D U D U U

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  17. #41
    Great! Look forward to this. I really enjoy the process part. For me, I'm coming from 7-patterns in-position, which leaves 5 above or below. I'm basically defaulting to moving down a fret, so, from 7th position to 6th position. Octave is mostly determined by my personal like/or dislike at the moment. :-)

    I've found that my choices are slightly different for pattern five for example, because it has different melodic implications with the movement, but it's mostly personal taste still.

    On a side note, I feel like it's probably an important part of the process for many of us to kind of develop our own fingerings, but I wonder if it might not be helpful to more beginner observers if we posted some of our fingerings in the way of grids etc.? Also, just as a way of sharing with each other...

    I'd love to see playing examples from some of the likes of Reg, Christian, M-ster etcby weeks end, ....in addition to some more newbie players. Questions re all aspects of this, from all levels, will help maintain interest.

  18. #42

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    Pattern 1 at 110 bpm, 2,3,4 all at 132 bpm

    Tried to keep it all within 5 frets, I only left the 5 fret boundary once as far as I can see. On pattern 1 I took it further to cover every note in 5 frets (C on the 6th string 8th fret to E on the 1st string 12th fret).


  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I agree with all of this structurally. The nerd in me wants to compartmentalize by type somewhat. I also want to keep moving, and I feel that we'll be looking ahead most of the time anyway.

    Pace is the big question mark for me in keeping motivation and interest. If it's too slow, does it bog down? The accountability aspect requires a pace that isn't too fast as well. In the beginning, it may be easier to err on the slower side and pick up the pace as needed, as we get in the groove with the cycles themselves, which are constant throughout the book.

    There are certainly layers of complexity to be added. For myself, playing these in- position for a relatively short time in a busy last week or so, I find myself looking at additional positions etc. I don't know that I'm gonna find myself bored at any particular pace , and I'm always going to be working ahead . There's kind of a readthrough stage and polishing stage /review stage for me, and those are two different places in the book.

    For this week, let's aim for as solid as we can manage with posting on patterns 5 & 6. Maybe consider 7 & 8 somewhat extra credit, and let's offer some feedback on pace. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

    Additionally, please offer thoughts/questions etc on upcoming things you're working on in the more mapping-out stages. For those working ahead in preliminary stages, what are you working on? What are your thoughts?
    I'm terribly busy too and would like to stay as close to just playing the numbered exercises straight through, and then others who can and wish to do more, can do so, and inspire us all.

  20. #44

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    I'm steadily working on this. I don't have time to post an example today but I will hopefully by Sunday and then I'll be ready to move to the next set of patterns.

    To summarize:

    I worked all the patterns to the suggested tempos.

    I've been a 5/7 position player for a long time but what I worked out was covering 2 octaves in 3 positions with the Root of C on the 5th string as position 1, which basically covers the first 5 frets, Then the Root on 6th string with 4th finger , then Root on 6th string with 1st finger. This I found to be basically covering the fretboard from 0 to 12 and slightly beyond blending in to first postion. I'm quite satisfied with this arrangement as I feel I have a good overiew of the fretboard with this arrangement.

    Then, I went down the rabbit hole, and this is what I meant by 3 months of study, hah
    just for fun, I started modifying the pattern, to inversions. Same rhythmic figures, but sequencing 351 and 513. talk about a headache! This is just me, and I may be getting beyond the scope of this first set of exercises but I was having fun exploring this idea. And it's not so bad.

    And to continue down the rabbit hole I slightly modified the triad patterns to be continuous , no half notes or tied notes so I could make continuous sequences out of the patterns. (no new notes, still just triad notes). Here my tempo suffers a little

    And finally, I did work patterns up the neck sequentially on the same fingerings, same strings because, why not? haha

    Just to be clear, I'm sticking to the program as laid out in the book - I don't want to go crazy adding a bunch of stuff to it- but I had some extra time this week so I kind of ran with it.

    I also found that while I liked working with iReal Pro, I often mixed it with straight metronome about 1/2 & 1/2 so that I could correct mistakes on the fly. I like it both ways.

    I haven't ventured in to the next set of patterns yet.


    This is really a blast guys. So enjoying this exercise.

  21. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Pattern 1 at 110 bpm, 2,3,4 all at 132 bpm

    Tried to keep it all within 5 frets, I only left the 5 fret boundary once as far as I can see. On pattern 1 I took it further to cover every note in 5 frets (C on the 6th string 8th fret to E on the 1st string 12th fret).

    Good stuff, Frank. Sounds great. Honestly, I'll never get used to looking at that backward pick slant and seeing it properly. I look at myself playing even, and it always looks like the video is out of sync or something. My eyes can't seem to make sense of it. Ha!

    What are you using for drums?

  22. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I'm terribly busy too and would like to stay as close to just playing the numbered exercises straight through, and then others who can and wish to do more, can do so, and inspire us all.
    To clarify, you're talking about posting the notated versions only (and not the additional "apply the same principle..." parts), this keeping to roughly 4-patterns-per-week?

    What was talked about above was spending longer time on fewer patterns , when they involve "apply the same principle". So, you'd do a week on 5 & 6 only, since they suggest "doing the same" with the previous 3 cycles.

    I'm a fan of the "extra credit" model, but I think erring on the side of slower may be beneficial to start.

    Thanks for your input. You're another study group boss. Between you and Frank....lots of mojo. :-)

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Good stuff, Frank. Sounds great. Honestly, I'll never get used to looking at that backward pick slant and seeing it properly. I look at myself playing even, and it always looks like the video is out of sync or something. My eyes can't seem to make sense of it. Ha!

    What are you using for drums?
    Thanks Matt. Yeah that pick slanting came from the Benson picking thread.

    For drums I'm using EZDrummer 2. That's a program that has really well done drum samples from several kits (you can buy more kits also) and has midi drum patterns. You can also import other midi libraries from them or 3rd parties, you can play your own midi, or program your own etc. The company is toontrack and the midi that they do was played by professional drummers, it's not snapped to the grid and has a human feel.

    I like to record and write tunes, EZdrummer 2 is great in that I can play in a basic groove, search for similar grooves, sequence them, and then surgically modify them if I want.

    I don't have many choices for 5/4, that pattern had me thinking of buying the odd time signature midi groove expansion... it can be a rabbit hole.

  24. #48

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    Ok, here's #1. I come up with something similar to fep, staying in a 5 frets range regarding the starting note of the triad, not so much the rest.
    I identified octaves from C to C, by doing so i came up with 6 way to play it.
    From C-6th string going to the to left to C-3rd string
    From C-6th string going to the right to C-1st string
    From C-5th string going to the left to C-1st string (this one done starting on the 15th fret to avoid open strings)
    From C-5th string going to the right to C-1st string
    From C-4th string going to the left initially but resorting to go to the left in the end to C-1st string
    From C-4th string going to the right ending in C-1st string



    And here is #2




    And here is #3


    And here is #4

    Last edited by benjaminjoe; 03-10-2019 at 06:32 AM.

  25. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminjoe
    Ok, here's #1.
    Wow. Nice. You're covering a lot of real estate, in the first one especially.

    Looks like mostly a three finger approach with the left hand I guess? Also, the way you are cycling chords is pretty different. It's cool to see these different approaches. Thanks for posting and for describing what you're doing as well.

    I hadn't seen much of you before this thread. Good to have you on board.

  26. #50

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    Thanks. May I ask what do you mean by Cycling chords? I tend to use the ring finger for the Caged E form I arpeggio . For the rest I stay in somewhat CAGED forms except for some occasional finger stretch derived from 3nps I guess? Mostly when the index finger is closer than the middle for a form that would require it.

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