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  1. #51
    Yeah the patterns move in cycles: half steps: C-Db-D... or fourths: C-F-Bb... Etc.

    The choices of where to shift to a new position is slightly different with the various players posting in third thread. Anyway, just thought the way you're playing was interesting and different. Thanks for posting.

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  3. #52

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    Didn't quite make it in by Sunday, but I'll blame it on the time change.

    Here are patterns 1-4 at 115 bpm, 2nd position, roots on A, D and G strings.

    Pattern 1:



    Pattern 2:



    Pattern 3:



    Pattern 4:





    I think I would give these at least another week of practice before moving on to the next set of drills, but I don't want to fall behind the group. I'm trying to work them through nine positions, but concentrated on only three positions as far as the group is concerned - starting with middle finger on the E, A and D strings. For my own benefit, I'm also starting with index and pinky on the E, A and D strings. For each set I'm using only the starting string and the next two higher strings for roots. This is forcing me to get better acquainted with the middle strings which is a real weak spot for me.

    My approach will probably change as needed as we progress through each set of exercises.

    .

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    Didn't quite make it in by Sunday, but I'll blame it on the time change.

    Here are patterns 1-4 at 115 bpm, 2nd position, roots on A, D and G strings.

    Pattern 1:



    Pattern 2:



    Pattern 3:



    Pattern 4:





    I think I would give these at least another week of practice before moving on to the next set of drills, but I don't want to fall behind the group. I'm trying to work them through nine positions, but concentrated on only three positions as far as the group is concerned - starting with middle finger on the E, A and D strings. For my own benefit, I'm also starting with index and pinky on the E, A and D strings. For each set I'm using only the starting string and the next two higher strings for roots. This is forcing me to get better acquainted with the middle strings which is a real weak spot for me.

    My approach will probably change as needed as we progress through each set of exercises.

    .
    Did you play the two C measures in the same octave? Also I notice a lot of stretching, is that from the positions you are using?

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  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminjoe
    Did you play the two C measures in the same octave? Also I notice a lot of stretching, is that from the positions you are using?

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    Thanks for checking them out.

    In the first exercise I played the octave C arpeggio off the D string root with the pinky. The B and C arpeggios require octave displacement of the upper root to stay in position. In the second pattern, I just landed on the C an octave lower. In the third pattern, I use the C off the D string with the pinky, again. The fourth pattern doesn't utilize the octave pattern.

    The finger stretches are due to an attempt to stay in strict position - the middle finger never leaves the 3rd fret and the ring finger never leaves the 4th fret. Some of the fingerings and stretches aren't exactly practical that low on the neck. The Db requires stretching the first finger down one fret and the pinky finger up one fret. The Bb requires the same. In lower positions, my hands don't make the stretches anymore, so I end up stretching as far as I can and pivoting off the thumb to make the final distance. It's obviously easier to move the hand up or down a fret than try to stay in position, but I'm trying to break myself of the habit of just moving to the most comfortable spot to play something.

    .

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    Thanks for checking them out.

    In the first exercise I played the octave C arpeggio off the D string root with the pinky. The B and C arpeggios require octave displacement of the upper root to stay in position. In the second pattern, I just landed on the C an octave lower. In the third pattern, I use the C off the D string with the pinky, again. The fourth pattern doesn't utilize the octave pattern.

    The finger stretches are due to an attempt to stay in strict position - the middle finger never leaves the 3rd fret and the ring finger never leaves the 4th fret. Some of the fingerings and stretches aren't exactly practical that low on the neck. The Db requires stretching the first finger down one fret and the pinky finger up one fret. The Bb requires the same. In lower positions, my hands don't make the stretches anymore, so I end up stretching as far as I can and pivoting off the thumb to make the final distance. It's obviously easier to move the hand up or down a fret than try to stay in position, but I'm trying to break myself of the habit of just moving to the most comfortable spot to play something.

    .
    That's an interesting way to play them! I tried to stay in position as well but is suspect the way pros play everyday involve a lot of shifting

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  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminjoe
    That's an interesting way to play them! I tried to stay in position as well but is suspect the way pros play everyday involve a lot of shifting

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    No doubt. Most often you see CAGED position playing which specifically avoids finger stretches. Probably the only real-world application for strict position playing is for sight reading.

    My goal with these exercises is to develop the ability to be anywhere on the fingerboard and play an Amaj7 arpeggio without having to stop and think about it or move to a specific location or specific string set, much like a horn player or piano player would approach it. They just alter the notes they're playing rather than move a finger shape to the 5th fret. To that end, I'm trying to avoid pattern playing - just move up two frets and play the C shape - and force myself to see the notes I'm playing.

    It's hard to keep my brain from organizing patterns and shapes though. Once that happens, I start going on autopilot.

    .

  8. #57

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    After looking over exercises 5-12, They're really just three variations going trough the same chord cycles we've already used:

    1. Up each arpeggio
    2. Up one - down the next
    3. Down one - up the next


    The only difference is quarter notes for full measures vs. eighth notes for half measures. Since I'm not reading these, the only real difference is speed. Eighth notes at 80 is the same thing as quarter notes at 160.

    I'm thinking I'm just going to combine it all into one exercise and add down each arpeggio as a fourth variation.

    Thoughts anyone?

    .

  9. #58
    Yeah. Subtle variations, especially at the front end of the book. I'm not going to be posting more than four per week. I'm at the 1-2-3-5 patterns for my more exploratory, wood-shedding work on this book. I think the idea of having a couple of benchmark patterns to post in a given week might be an okay idea - so 2 patterns which basically represent the work done on four or more etc... I'm fine either way.

    I'm willing to do what most everyone thinks best. Personally, I view things which we post as being more about accountability and just sharing . They are never going to represent EXACTLY where I am in the book probably. Hard to say what everyone thinks without more input. Counting yours, I think we've gotten two comments so far regarding pace. It would be cool to have others input.

    Beyond all of that, I would personally make a distinction between quarters and eighths, but my stated goal is to swing these exercises above all else. I somewhat understand that they're the same if you're playing them straight as an exercise etc.

    Anyone else with thoughts on pace? Do we want to pick a couple of benchmark patterns to post each week and group more by pattern type? Do you want to maintain current pace?

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    ... The only difference is quarter notes for full measures vs. eighth notes for half measures. Since I'm not reading these, the only real difference is speed. Eighth notes at 80 is the same thing as quarter notes at 160.

    Thoughts anyone?

    .
    I I was to do such exercise, playing in 1/4 would be all down strokes, playing in 1/8 would be alternate.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    I I was to do such exercise, playing in 1/4 would be all down strokes, playing in 1/8 would be alternate.

    That's how I handle it as well. That's probably enough of a reason to go through them both ways. So I'll add that back in.

    Thanks for the input.

    .

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I'm willing to do what most everyone thinks best. Personally, I view things which we post as being more about accountability and just sharing . They are never going to represent EXACTLY where I am in the book probably. Hard to say what everyone thinks without more input. Counting yours, I think we've gotten two comments so far regarding pace. It would be cool to have others input.
    I like the two-pages a week pace. It's doable. And if one misses---life intervenes, after all---then one does not feel hopelessly far behind.

    There's going to be a lot of repetition in the early patterns. I think it's important to post SOMETHING just to do it, to be part of the group and participating. Some of us may need work others don't. Maybe it's the progressions. For example, I'm not used to cycling things in minor thirds, so that's a big thing to me. But whereas chromatic ascents may be challenging on a horn---I have no idea---they are practically mindless on the guitar.

    But I don't think anyone is responsible for posting every pattern. (Unless they feel a need to do that, which is fine, but most of us don't have that need.)

    Stay in, keep talking, and we'll see how it goes. ;o)

  13. #62

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    I plan on going at the pace of the first post. For me it seems very reasonable.

    I don't think this kind of activity should take too high of a percent of someones music time. I certainly wouldn't want to spend 50% of my music time on something like this, somewhere around 10% would be more appropriate I would think.

    Maybe I'll fall behind... time will tell.
    Last edited by fep; 03-12-2019 at 07:29 PM.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

    But I don't think anyone is responsible for posting every pattern. (Unless they feel a need to do that, which is fine, but most of us don't have that need.)
    Okay... I like the accountability of posting videos. Also great for motivation, great for self critique. But posting every exercise multiple times as I go up the metronome ladder, I won't do that. I think posting something every week, even as little as just one of the exercises, I would encourage that.

  15. #64

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    I am largely in agreement with regard to pace being set by the individual himself and I think that there are benefits to discussion between those on the same patterns as well as those ahead and behind.

    I think regular contribution by video demonstration is important but doesn't have to be detailed with every pattern multiple times unless that is desirable for you.

    I'm primarily interested in how you are approaching the exercises and how you are using them in practical applications so I'd love to see videos on that, personally.

    I tend to milk ideas and stretch ideas and play with them for discovering insights which means I will tend toward a slower pace in general, probably a max of 2 to 4 patterns a week as I am finding that some times I run in to things that require more time or I just personally enjoy embellishing specific things.

    I guess I'm just saying travel at your own pace but leave some trail markers for others regularly to document your journey. I'm in for the long haul.

  16. #65

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    Sorry that I am late with these but here are Patterns #1 throughout 4

    Pattern #1


    Pattern #2

    Pattern #3

    Pattern #4

  17. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    Sorry that I am late with these but here are Patterns #1 throughout 4

    Pattern #1


    Pattern #2

    Pattern #3

    Pattern #4
    Hey, Anthony. I was wondering if you meant to play triplets on 2 and 4... Anyway, good swinging triplet phrasing. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on approach as well.

    Can you tell a little about your Thinline?

    Thanks.

  18. #67

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    As for the second set (#5-8) I'm having the most trouble with number 6, where you descend the first triad and descend the second. I'm used to starting with an ascent, so this is the one that may do me the most good. I have to play it much slower than the first.

    My approach here (and with number 5) is to play two triads out of one shape, then go to another shape, repeat, then another. So in short order I'm playing 6 different shapes.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Hey, Anthony. I was wondering if you meant to play triplets on 2 and 4... Anyway, good swinging triplet phrasing. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on approach as well.

    Can you tell a little about your Thinline?

    Thanks.
    Hi Matt,

    I think the swinging triplets just come out of me naturally. I don't really think about it. Are there any particular pattern where they were more prominent to your ear ?

    The Tele Thinline is a G & L ASAT Bluesboy (Maybe 2003). Anyways, I swapped out the neck for a Warmoth and I swapped out the bridge pick up for a Klein (I believe it is called a JazzyKat)

    Great Tele !!

    Here is a clip of it in a live performance


  20. #69

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    In the Larry Carlton 335 Improv course he has a section on applying triads. Over a dominant chord, Fsus9 to F9 in this example, he says to use these triads, Eb, F, Cm, (in his playing example he actually uses Eb, F, Cm, Cm7, F7, Gm, and Bb).

    I've used that idea to practice the Jerry Coker triads. Here over a backing track I made for Fsus9 to F9 I'm alternating over Eb and F triads with some embellishments. Even while playing the embellishments I'm still always thinking of the triad shapes. In my previous playing the exercises within 5 frets I ended up with 8 shapes, 5 Caged, and 3 more shapes which are CAGED shapes combined with each other. I think I hit most of them on the exercise.

    Last edited by fep; 03-14-2019 at 02:00 PM.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    In the Larry Carlton 335 Improv course he has a section on applying triads. Over a dominant chord, Fsus9 to F9 in this example, he says to use these triads, Eb, F, Cm, (in his playing example he actually uses Eb, F, Cm, Cm7, F7, Gm, and Bb).

    I've used that idea to practice the Jerry Coker triads. Here over a backing track I made for Fsus9 to F9 I'm alternating over Eb and F triads with some embellishments. Even while playing the embellishments I'm still always thinking of the triad shapes. In my previous playing the exercises within 5 frets I ended up with 8 shapes, 5 Caged, and 3 more shapes which are CAGED shapes combined with each other. I think I hit most of them on the exercise.

    You beat me to it, Frank! I've been working on the same thing. I'll post in a bit here. I've been working the triads on a blues progression. It's all about how you use the stuff, right? that's awesome. I dig your guitar too. what is it?

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Kaye
    You beat me to it, Frank! I've been working on the same thing. I'll post in a bit here. I've been working the triads on a blues progression. It's all about how you use the stuff, right? that's awesome. I dig your guitar too. what is it?
    Thanks Mike, the guitar is an Ibanez Artist 2630, I bought it in 1977 or was it 1978? It was the predecessor to the AS200.

  23. #72

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    okay, here's the beginnings of application for me.

    G7 swing blues vamp and I'm applying the following triads: G ( root, 3 5) F (b7, 9, 11) E (13, b9, 3) and A (6, 9, b5)

    the G and F and A gives the whole step moves. Some chromatic steps give the 1/2 steps, the E gives the minor 3rd move
    and of course you can do all the same moves (plus others, I'm sure) on all three chords of a blues but I was trying to keep it simple for this video.

    The big revelation is that I am not thinking one bit about any damn scale, lol.. I'm thinking purely in triads. So the solo is pretty angular I'd say because of that but imagine blending in the mixo scale and I can see how this would smooth out. But I'm fascinated by how I can move around the neck without think of any kind of scale. This is new for me. I usually need a scale I can call home! This was a really fun exercise as Frank will attest to.


  24. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    Hi Matt,

    I think the swinging triplets just come out of me naturally. I don't really think about it. Are there any particular pattern where they were more prominent to your ear ?
    Sorry. I was combining 2 thoughts I guess in a confusing way. What I was wondering about was your playing of the triplet rhythm from #1 on patterns 2 & 4, in place of the notated 8th notes.

    My second statement was simply that I liked your phrasing. I enjoyed your video above as well. (One bizarre sidenote is that Youtube popped up with an ad for a hat almost exactly like the one you're wearing in your video. Big brother isn't only using algorithms on text descriptions. It also now has HAT recognition?)

    Anyway, nice hat. :-)

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Kaye
    okay, here's the beginnings of application for me.

    G7 swing blues vamp and I'm applying the following triads: G ( root, 3 5) F (b7, 9, 11) E (13, b9, 3) and A (6, 9, b5)

    the G and F and A gives the whole step moves. Some chromatic steps give the 1/2 steps, the E gives the minor 3rd move
    and of course you can do all the same moves (plus others, I'm sure) on all three chords of a blues but I was trying to keep it simple for this video.

    The big revelation is that I am not thinking one bit about any damn scale, lol.. I'm thinking purely in triads. So the solo is pretty angular I'd say because of that but imagine blending in the mixo scale and I can see how this would smooth out. But I'm fascinated by how I can move around the neck without think of any kind of scale. This is new for me. I usually need a scale I can call home! This was a really fun exercise as Frank will attest to.

    Bravo, that is really cool. Some great sounds. I dig what you are saying about not thinking about a scale. I'm doing the same even on my embellishments that might include scale fragments (or chromatic bits), still I'm thinking and targeting the tones of the triad. This stuff dovetails well the the Carlton course.

  26. #75
    I recorded some takes on five and six today in their four cycles, including those suggested in the "apply the same principle" notation under each. Looking at numbers 7 and 8, I'm a little warped out by separating them from 9 and 10. After a few minutes of practice, I can get 7 and 8 working in a pretty basic way at max recommended tempo, but these are really pretty tough. Honestly, my immediate thought was that the fastest way to improve 7 & 8 is to work on 7-10 as a unit.

    FwLineberry suggested these groupings more thank a week ago, and I have to say that I now think that this is very likely the right call:

    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    Some of those exercises include directions to go back and redo the previous exercises with the new pattern. Is that just going to be added into what gets covered in a week or stretch things out another week?
    I'll post a current version of patterns 5-8 tonight when I get my camera back, but I'm going to suggest that it might be cool to post samples from all of patterns 7-10 NEXT week, while focusing on 5 & 6 more this week. Patterns 5-6 contain 6 separate patterns between the two, including the annotations. (Whether you POST all of them or not, you probably want to WORK all of them.)

    then, 7-10 are a unit...

    then, 11 & 12 (with additions)...

    13-17...?

    18-20...

    21 & 22 (with additions)...
    Etc.

    My primary focus on this is technical and fretboard knowledge. So, honestly I'm fine with camping outon fewer at a time. 7-10 are plenty hard enough for me. 138 bpmon these is pushing for me. I'd like to really work them.

    I've been slammed the last week and a half or so, and I haven't given this as much attention as I should have probably. Let me know what you think about these groupings as possible revised weekly targets.

    Does the above suggested pace elicit more of a "Yes please" or more of a "that's too slow"? Let me know.

    I've really enjoyed the amount and diversity of participation in this thread. Thanks to everyone.