thoughts on adopting Benson picking

[Jonah]

es, CC and Moreno deal with it by obviously playing only downstrokes..

Yeh.. but that puts them into their own world where they can build up ierarchy just all inside \downstrok' world...

I think also electric guitar is important in that case - some hammer ons do much more effect on accent and phrasing than down or up stroke whicj can be almost unnoticeable on loud amp

[christianm77]

Maybe you did not understand me.
What I am saying is: All the things you mention should be available on both down and up.
The goal is not to depend on picking direction.
If you can produce certain type of sound using down stroke, you should be able to produce exactly the same sound with an up stroke, and the other way around. It should be under your control how each down/up stroke will sound.
For example, whatever you strictly alternate pick starting on down, you should be able to reproduce starting on up, including all the rest strokes and articulation, without audible difference.

I disagree that is necessarily the goal for technique.

It is a goal for some guitarists.

[christianm77]

I doubt it, I think Jonah nailed it:

"appoyando is sort of default in calssical if you play melody (whichever finger it is) - you do it first thing ususally..
And tirando is like chords, technical arpeggios etc. (as default)"

Again, I might be totally barking up the wrong tree, but I have heard some teachers saying you should be able to play at the same volume tirando as apoyando, which would remove the need for apoyando.

So you always keep your wrist in a high position where your finger misses the adjacent string on the stroke. When I received lessons in classical technique I was told to keep my wrist very high - so high that I couldn’t actually play apoyando if I wanted to.

I think this might be a certain school of technique, but maybe not. (It could be just those lessons aiming to stop me from collapsing my wrist and playing from the wrong joints.)

(This is exactly why, btw, the gypsy jazz upstroke is a free stroke.)

[Vladan]

I disagree actually...
... I myself to be honest when I play jazz do not control it thoroughly.
Besides there are techniques like sweep
... as if as you say the tone and force should be always equal.

I just think we should use some natural qualities of our body as advantages... not trying to overcome them and make them all the same.
I just do not see what for.

Besides - in music notes are not even - this is what is important I believe - they are never even. !

Just have to make it clear, once again.
My idea was not that, and I've never said, all notes should be even.
On the contrary. I have said that it is wrong to understand facility of being able to "play up strokes and down strokes evenly" as "all notes should be even".
It should be understood and discussed as a goal, which is to be able to play a set of notes, no matter how different they are, regardless of picking direction.

Obviously, some specific techniques, like arpeggio sweeping, as well as techniques where notes are not being picked are not subject of my comments.

Yes, of course you should use natural qualities as advantage, but you definitely should overcome them, because they can be disadvantage.
You do not want to come to position where you'll be ... bummer, I'd really to play something here, but I can not, because it does not naturally fall on down stroke ...
That is the basic premise.

I do not think anybody is in full control over own playing all of the time. Especially not in Jazz. It is actually quite natural, thus common, to let go to natural predispositions. However, one should be able to regain control in shortest amount of time, without being restricted by picking direction.

As for the rest of your discussion,m I actually agree.

[christianm77]

I had an undiagnosed partially ruptured cervical disc which was pressing on some nerves in my spinal chord. That causes a whole litany of problems involving pain and muscle weakness, and in retrospect even the healthy nerve and muscle tissue was probably having to compensate and getting overused depending on what I was practicing. Eventually the disc ruptured more completely and my right arm went numb and I lost most of my strength and control in that limb, as well as going through some horrible pain. I had surgery to enlarge the aperture in the spine where the nerves go through and I presume they trimmed some of the disc as well. I've never made it back to 100%, but it's a lot better than it was.

As far as the acoustic guitar, it takes a lot more force to play in terms of making it loud enough, so I just don't play them unless I'm hired to do so. I don't actually own a steel string acoustic.

Ah mate that sounds horrendous! Sorry about that.

I still think force is the wrong way to think about it. Gypsy players are very relaxed for instance.

The downstroke doesn’t require any muscular force. Gravity is on your side and your forearm is heavier than you think. You actually have to release muscles to make the downstroke happen.

The rest stroke stops this free and natural movement on the next string so you don’t simply strum all 6 strings. At first it feels like your playing is uncontrolled. But that’s where the power comes from.

Students often find this quite difficult! Not because it’s hard to do, but rather because they are so used to inhibiting and controlling those movements for accuracy in other styles of picking.

They are so used to making notes happen.

The muscles engage to prepare the next stroke by lifting the arm. In combination with a slight wrist rotation this gives you the upstroke.

But there should never be any muscular exertion beyond the bare minimum to make that recovery stroke. You should never feel like you are pushing the notes out.

That’s why downstrokes can’t balance upstrokes for this technique btw. Because we live on a planet. On the Space Station, I think rotational alternate picking is better.

I wonder how it affected Chris Hadfield’s strumming?

[Jonah]

Just have to make it clear, once again.
My idea was not that, and I've never said, all notes should be even.
On the contrary. I have said that it is wrong to understand facility of being able to "play up strokes and down strokes evenly" as "all notes should be even".
It should be understood and discussed as a goal, which is to be able to play a set of notes, no matter how different they are, regardless of picking direction.

Obviously, some specific techniques, like arpeggio sweeping, as well as techniques where notes are not being picked are not subject of my comments.

Yes, of course you should use natural qualities as advantage, but you definitely should overcome them, because they can be disadvantage.
You do not want to come to position where you'll be ... bummer, I'd really to play something here, but I can not, because it does not naturally fall on down stroke ...
That is the basic premise.

I do not think anybody is in full control over own playing all of the time. Especially not in Jazz. It is actually quite natural, thus common, to let go to natural predispositions. However, one should be able to regain control in shortest amount of time, without being restricted by picking direction.

As for the rest of your discussion,m I actually agree.

Yeh-yeh... I understand this..

I just do not know - really do not know - where the line is between using our natural qualities and supressing and overcoming it... and which ones...

[christianm77]

Yeh-yeh... I understand this..

I just do not know - really do not know - where the line is between using our natural qualities and supressing and overcoming it... and which ones...

I think it’s cool to think about.

Tbh different players draw the line in different places.

In fact, I make a lot of decisions on left hand fingering based on what is easier and natural to play phrasing wise with my right hand.... I think some players would even see that as a compromise, but for me it’s ‘what gets the job done.’

I think the limitations and strengths of my picking style are factored into that.

[Jonah]

Again, I might be totally barking up the wrong tree, but I have heard some teachers saying you should be able to play at the same volume tirando as apoyando, which would remove the need for apoyando.

So you always keep your wrist in a high position where your finger misses the adjacent string on the stroke. When I received lessons in classical technique I was told to keep my wrist very high - so high that I couldn’t actually play apoyando if I wanted to.

I think this might be a certain school of technique, but maybe not. (It could be just those lessons aiming to stop me from collapsing my wrist and playing from the wrong joints.)

(This is exactly why, btw, the gypsy jazz upstroke is a free stroke.)

Of course they taught to play both... but in playing melodic lines appoyando was default (like I had to play scales always appoyando...) but when a different charater was needed it was specially said to play 'tirando'

Also it was taught immidiately in mixed form - when you play melody on top string appoyando with your ring finger and the accompaniment with other fingers tirando...

But maybe a different school really...

I have not played real classical guiatr for more than 20 years now... when I play nylons today I use romantic guitar technique.. where appoyando is truely possible only with a thumb

[Jonah]

I think it’s cool to think about.

Tbh different players draw the line in different places.

In fact, I make a lot of decisions on left hand fingering based on what is easier and natural to play phrasing wise with my right hand.... I think some players would even see that as a compromise, but for me it’s ‘what gets the job done.’

I think the limitations and strengths of my picking style are factored into that.

I think it is part of what Hopkinson Smith talked abut in the quote I made about sound productio... getting deeper and deeper into the instrument to know it... you also get to know yourself deeper and deeper.... it changes all the time

[christianm77]

Of course they taught to play both... but in playing melodic lines appoyando was default (like I had to play scales always appoyando...) but when a different charater was needed it was specially said to play 'tirando'

Also it was taught immidiately in mixed form - when you play melody on top string appoyando with your ring finger and the accompaniment with other fingers tirando...

But maybe a different school really...

I have not played real classical guiatr for more than 20 years now... when I play nylons today I use romantic guitar technique.. where appoyando is truely possible only with a thumb

Which is romantic technique?

[Jonah]

Which is romantic technique

It's like baroque lute approximately... usually without nails. It works better on romantic guitar...
If I have to play modern classical guitar this way I take very good strings and drop it all down half-step then it sounds...

It's not the only technique for romantic guitar but it became more or less conventional today fro this type of guitar...

Rob plays this way... I think he actually plays this same way all the instruments he play in his video.


I think this works fine on uke... I believe biggest part of popularity of Shimambukuro (beyong promotion an dall that exotic thing to play Queen on uke and all) is his rythm and very good touch..
you can hear it when he plays unplugged...
(because otherwise there is nothing special in it...)

[Robertkoa]

If you adopt Benson Picking and it doesn't work out can you give him back?

Ha. Well just saying you can get Peter Farrel lessons- first time I've seen someone of that caliber give technique instruction.