thoughts on adopting Benson picking

[Vladan]

The point is not alternate picking sounding as even as possible. It is probably just a starting point.
It is in being independent of picking direction.
What I can do picking in one direction, I should be able to replicate picking in opposite, without listener hearing the difference.

[Jonah]

What I can do picking in one direction, I should be able to replicate picking in opposite, without listener hearing the difference.

if you wish...

but why? in 1500-1600s they felt that music was organized in rather more natural way for human being... the tone and harmony were associated, the weak and stong points of natural physiology of human body were associated with weak and strong point in music.. natural way to help to express it.
This was treated in a way and actor uses the pros and cons of his ersonal mimics and individuality...
It does not mean one should not practice... but trying to do unnatural things for a human was not a good idea.. too daring.

[MarkRhodes]

I love this old clip of Frank with Jimmy Rosenberg and a guy (Joe Ascione) using wire brushes on a stack of phone books.

The music is great and the camera allows us to see a great difference between Jimmy's approach to picking and Frank's. They are compatible but not the same.

Frank was very influenced by Eric Clapton and Eddie Van Halen as a kid, which is most apparent in the slow introductory verse. Frank wasn't a jazzer from the get-go.

[christianm77]

when I play steel string or electic more often than lute (it happens - with me it goes like waves of modds: 4 weeks of crazy about jazz.. then suddenly a few weeks of deep renaissance or French baroque))) (or depends on gigs)- I am not sure that it is good in general - but who knows?)... well.. when I switch back to lute I feel like I lost some sensitivity though I do not change the touch in general... I think it is because of tension..
Also if use my thumb too much on still string it may cause problems with double-tringed basse courses on lute... though I regaim it quickly.



Absolutely! Besnson's writ position is like ren. lute player.. but on the other hand check how differently Hopkinson Smith and Nigel North plays= in that same technique... Smith plays almost horizontally and North at much more sharp angle..
Basically 'thumb out' does not mean 'no p-i,p-i...'

Yeah, I knew that. I understand Dowland was meant to have been a thumb out player at least later on?

Thumb out seems better for late Ren/baroque polyphony, while thumb in seems better for teh Rennaisance alt picking shredz, right?

My teacher was a student of Nigel North and better known as a Baroque guitarist, so he was thumb out, but could also teach and play thumb in. Another guy I had a little contact with, Dai Miller, primarily known as a lutenist also uses thumb in on guitar and sounds great - even Romantic guitar (no nails.)

But on theorbo an dbaroque lute they do not use that and still - the touching technique is the same! I probably could make a short exmple of what I mean of weekend if it is interesting.. I do not like making vids but this is simple to do... I can show what I do both on lute and guitars... I mean exactly that touch/tone production thing



Actually you should not do strokes at all if it is p-i-p-i technique ... at least in the beginning practice... you just mve your arm up and down from the elbow... (fingers are relaxed but fixed )
it is a little bit different thing than a single touch that is used also on other lutes and on sigle and double courses. The touch is the same but the movement of joints is different.

Yeah - I do know actually what you mean. It's like a weird combination of picking and fingerpicking. It's a cool technique. I tried on guitar last night and I could almost play Donna Lee that way, so maybe its worth persisting with lol.

So in that sense - it kind of is Benson picking.... You can also use the famous oscillationary motion referenced by Tuck Andress? :-)

[christianm77]

Good demo of the technique lol.

Straight up alternate picking...

[guitarbuddy]

If you don't mind me asking - what's the problem (if you know) - the size of the instrument, the action, the technique?

I had an undiagnosed partially ruptured cervical disc which was pressing on some nerves in my spinal chord. That causes a whole litany of problems involving pain and muscle weakness, and in retrospect even the healthy nerve and muscle tissue was probably having to compensate and getting overused depending on what I was practicing. Eventually the disc ruptured more completely and my right arm went numb and I lost most of my strength and control in that limb, as well as going through some horrible pain. I had surgery to enlarge the aperture in the spine where the nerves go through and I presume they trimmed some of the disc as well. I've never made it back to 100%, but it's a lot better than it was.

As far as the acoustic guitar, it takes a lot more force to play in terms of making it loud enough, so I just don't play them unless I'm hired to do so. I don't actually own a steel string acoustic.

[Vladan]

if you wish...

but why? in 1500-1600s they felt that music was organized in rather more natural way for human being...

Ok, I believe it was so, back in 1500-1600, I have no knowledge and am not really interested in history of lute playing. I guess many and more important things were different 500 years ago, why would picking technique be not?

What I was saying in previous post was meant to let the people know about what I think the real meaning of "up strokes sounding same as down strokes" is.

[Hep To The Jive]

Ah fuck I got them mixed up. That'll serve me right for using the Spanish.

At least I was right about Christiansen.

Alternate picking is a thing - Vignola's downstroke focussed picking is another thing. They both deal with the same basic physics in different ways.

One is to say - 'Downstroke is louder, let's focus on that'. The other is 'lets even out the upstroke and the downstroke'.

In the former the upstroke becomes a necessary evil. In the second example the downstroke has to be reined in slightly to balance the upstroke, however strong.

OTOH that bounce mechanic I mentioned gives the upstroke a lot of energy, but can't be done without a downstroke before it. It's hard to explain. You HAVE to play that way to get it I think. But even this style of picking is a lot less even. Which may not be that much of a problem.

Anyway, there's a lot of present day jazz guitarists who basically can't play without amplification.

One of the advantages - perhaps the ONLY long term advantage of the downstroke centric approach - is that it allows you to project on an acoustic guitar. Nowadays we associate this with Gypsy Jazz, but generations of players grew up doing this in the days before cheap and high quality student electric guitars and amps. Think Joe Pass, Herb Ellis etc.

HOWEVER - as I say Bluegrass players often play acoustic with alternate picking in loud bands with mandolin and banjo etc, so there's clearly some way of making it work, so perhaps it's more a product of jazz guitarists (excepting gypsy guys) never playing acoustically rather than this or that technique.

The apoyando (see, got it) approach has the advantage, as in fingerstyle, of allowing you to bring as much force to bear as you want on the string without fear of playing any other. However a good tirando (:-)) technique can allow that too, presumably, if you are good enough at it.

I believe there are discussions in classical guitar like this, as they do have to play acoustically, most of the time, so its a big deal.

So I'm not really advocating one technique or the other. In fact I drift between the two poles.

In Classical though, they don't choose either appoyando or tirando, they need to practice and use both. At a start of any Classical method books, that's always in introductionary lesson.

Even though i have a feeling in Classical tirando is more as a default, and in Flamenco appoyando.

So for us pickers, maybe rest strokes and free strokes need to be covered just the same?

[Jonah]

Thumb out seems better for late Ren/baroque polyphony, while thumb in seems better for teh Rennaisance alt picking shredz, right?

as Dai in video explains it was adaptation from solo line plectrum picking playing to polyphony of renaissance - they needed more fingers)))

But thumb out iis more connected with increasing quantity of courses then with music...
(Most of renaissance music (not dances) are much more polyphonic than baroque.)

With 10-13 courses you need to have different hand position to securely play basses - the distance is bigger..
Alessandro Piccinini and 1620s described his technique in details and it shows that he used 'thumb out' and still alternate 'p-i-p-i' in lines... he describes very interestingly how to decide from which finger to strat.. you have to count odd and even tab signes from the last sign of the line - as a result you just always have 'p' on the beat and 'i' on 'and' whatever the value and grouping of the notes are)))
The approach reminded me rythmic Barry Harris method a bit)))

Good demo of the technique lol.

Straight up alternate picking...

When he plays with only index finger up and down.. it was common in Spanish vihuela music (they were calling it desdillo) check this, Barto developed it to utmost fluency as any technique with him. It only INDEX finger in lines both up and down strokes

[Jonah]

Even though i have a feeling in Classical tirando is more as a default, and in Flamenco appoyando.

I felt like appoyando is sort of default in calssical if you play melody (whichever finger it is) - you do it first thing ususally..
And tirando is like chords, technical arpeggios etc. (as default)

[Jonah]

Ok, I believe it was so, back in 1500-1600, I have no knowledge and am not really interested in history of lute playing. I guess many and more important things were different 500 years ago, why would picking technique be not?

What I was saying in previous post was meant to let the people know about what I think the real meaning of "up strokes sounding same as down strokes" is.

Maybe I misunderstood... of course if you speak of a clarity and precision of attack and tone they should be even...

I answered you because ot was concerning 'eveness' in some sense

what I spoke about was not historical or specifically about lute, it was illustrated with history but the application of it is absolutely modern - and behind it is the relation between a player and the istrument and what they are based upon and how they work.

It is exactly the point that upstrokes even today should not be and cannot be the same as downstrokes...
as evey note has its position in musical piece realted to meter and rythm - thus picking technique reponds to it...
Even if we play the lins with consisten alternate picking in a good performance the up and down strokes will correspond to the rythmic accents (the opposite is also useful like upstrok of strong note to make a light shift of accent).
It is an advantage...

With fingerpicking it is the same when index and middle finger alternate.. it is also sort of 'up and down' (by the why which one is stronger?)

It is possible to play all down strokes like CC or Wes did.. but then they are just in another workd and they control it inside.

But using two tools and make them sound identical is strange... and as I said in real music it is actually impossible I believe.

[rNeil]

I've read through the GB part of the initial article and the whole explanation with pics in a following article. I think your own body and axe make a huge difference.

I can do the "GB" style with wrist below on my Tele in a high and specific position relative to my body.

I can't get there with my L5 style Lyle, 17" lower bout, 3-1/2" rims, bridge holding strings an inch and fraction out from the top. There's just too much guitar there to get my arm around and hand in position like that. To even approach forces my right shoulder out unnaturally and I still can't get past even let alone curved back slightly.

However, there's a pick holding position that's turned the other way. Thumb and side of index holding pick with wrist slightly turned on a flat plane to right, essentially "down".

This gets the pick attack angle to the strings at the same of the GB angle, just the pick ... 90* different.

And gets the better tone on plucking allowing for thicker picks.

Neil

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Hep To The Jive]

I felt like appoyando is sort of default in calssical if you play melody (whichever finger it is) - you do it first thing ususally..
And tirando is like chords, technical arpeggios etc. (as default)

Yes , that's it!

[Vladan]

Maybe I misunderstood...

It is exactly the point that upstrokes even today should not be and cannot be the same as downstrokes...
as evey note has its position in musical piece realted to meter and rythm - thus picking technique reponds to it...
Even if we play the lins with consisten alternate picking in a good performance the up and down strokes will correspond to the rythmic accents (the opposite is also useful like upstrok of strong note to make a light shift of accent).
It is an advantage...

Maybe you did not understand me.
What I am saying is: All the things you mention should be available on both down and up.
The goal is not to depend on picking direction.
If you can produce certain type of sound using down stroke, you should be able to produce exactly the same sound with an up stroke, and the other way around. It should be under your control how each down/up stroke will sound.
For example, whatever you strictly alternate pick starting on down, you should be able to reproduce starting on up, including all the rest strokes and articulation, without audible difference.

[christianm77]

In Classical though, they don't choose either appoyando or tirando, they need to practice and use both. At a start of any Classical method books, that's always in introductionary lesson.

Even though i have a feeling in Classical tirando is more as a default, and in Flamenco appoyando.

So for us pickers, maybe rest strokes and free strokes need to be covered just the same?

I might be wrong but I think some classical players are at pains to play free stroke only. Is this correct?

[christianm77]

I love this old clip of Frank with Jimmy Rosenberg and a guy (Joe Ascione) using wire brushes on a stack of phone books.

The music is great and the camera allows us to see a great difference between Jimmy's approach to picking and Frank's. They are compatible but not the same.

Frank was very influenced by Eric Clapton and Eddie Van Halen as a kid, which is most apparent in the slow introductory verse. Frank wasn't a jazzer from the get-go.

Again the stand out for me is just how awesome Vignola is at rhythm playing - notice the position of his hand - near the neck, quite different from most GJ rhythm players, but more like a Freddie Green. This creates a texture that's easy for Rosenberg to cut through with his near the bridge picking.

JR's comping is a lot tougher for him to cut through, I think. Lots of high end stuff flying around.

Anyway, who in the past 50 years started off as a jazzer?

[christianm77]

Maybe I misunderstood... of course if you speak of a clarity and precision of attack and tone they should be even...

I answered you because ot was concerning 'eveness' in some sense

what I spoke about was not historical or specifically about lute, it was illustrated with history but the application of it is absolutely modern - and behind it is the relation between a player and the istrument and what they are based upon and how they work.

It is exactly the point that upstrokes even today should not be and cannot be the same as downstrokes...
as evey note has its position in musical piece realted to meter and rythm - thus picking technique reponds to it...
Even if we play the lins with consisten alternate picking in a good performance the up and down strokes will correspond to the rythmic accents (the opposite is also useful like upstrok of strong note to make a light shift of accent).
It is an advantage...

With fingerpicking it is the same when index and middle finger alternate.. it is also sort of 'up and down' (by the why which one is stronger?)

It is possible to play all down strokes like CC or Wes did.. but then they are just in another workd and they control it inside.

But using two tools and make them sound identical is strange... and as I said in real music it is actually impossible I believe.

I'm not sure if I know the answer to this - but, in Jazz it's important while not perhaps to play super even all the time, for the upbeat to reach parity with the downbeat in terms of importance.

So alt pickers see the evening out as a first point to reach. Wes, CC and Moreno deal with it by obviously playing only downstrokes.... as I mentioned...

OTOH what's quite interesting about Gypsy Picking is that the accents (downstrokes) go out of synch with the beat in interesting ways. In fact the positioning of where the downstrokes go in the line really has to do with rhythmic accent and phrasing, but you naturally get things like the dotted quarter accent if you play three notes a string eighth note lines with this style.

So that means a certain amount of funkiness and syncopation is in built.

Lest people think it's only applicable to Gypsy Jazz (which is licky music for sure), GB picking is similar in it's approach and Joe Pass played this way.

[Hep To The Jive]

I might be wrong but I think some classical players are at pains to play free stroke only. Is this correct?

I doubt it, I think Jonah nailed it:

"appoyando is sort of default in calssical if you play melody (whichever finger it is) - you do it first thing ususally..
And tirando is like chords, technical arpeggios etc. (as default)"

[Hep To The Jive]

I love this old clip of Frank with Jimmy Rosenberg and a guy (Joe Ascione) using wire brushes on a stack of phone books.

The music is great and the camera allows us to see a great difference between Jimmy's approach to picking and Frank's. They are compatible but not the same.

Frank was very influenced by Eric Clapton and Eddie Van Halen as a kid, which is most apparent in the slow introductory verse. Frank wasn't a jazzer from the get-go.

That wore me down, talk about cutting!

[Jazzstdnt]

I might be wrong but I think some classical players are at pains to play free stroke only. Is this correct?

I've heard that, yes.

[MarkRhodes]

Again the stand out for me is just how awesome Vignola is at rhythm playing - notice the position of his hand - near the neck, quite different from most GJ rhythm players, but more like a Freddie Green. This creates a texture that's easy for Rosenberg to cut through with his near the bridge picking.

JR's comping is a lot tougher for him to cut through, I think. Lots of high end stuff flying around.

Anyway, who in the past 50 years started off as a jazzer?

Vignola's rhythm playing is stellar. I think it's one reason he gets so many primo gigs. (That and he knows countless tunes.)

[guitarbuddy]

So alt pickers see the evening out as a first point to reach. Wes, CC and Moreno deal with it by obviously playing only downstrokes.... as I mentioned...

I've heard Moreno's name for years but had only checked him out casually. Reading this made me curious. Here's a video of him explaining his picking. It's not all downstrokes.

Mike Moreno - Guitar Lesson 1 (Sound, Technique & Articulation)

[christianm77]

It’s downstrokes at moderate tempo. When he needs to play fast he’s economy

[christianm77]

I've heard Moreno's name for years but had only checked him out casually. Reading this made me curious. Here's a video of him explaining his picking. It's not all downstrokes.

Mike Moreno - Guitar Lesson 1 (Sound, Technique & Articulation)

Well worth buying that vid btw. Totally rebuilt my playing

[Jonah]

Maybe you did not understand me.
What I am saying is: All the things you mention should be available on both down and up.
The goal is not to depend on picking direction.
If you can produce certain type of sound using down stroke, you should be able to produce exactly the same sound with an up stroke, and the other way around. It should be under your control how each down/up stroke will sound.
For example, whatever you strictly alternate pick starting on down, you should be able to reproduce starting on up, including all the rest strokes and articulation, without audible difference.

I disagree actually...
though this strict technical approach is quite common I admit. Especialy in modern music where technic is more about mechanics...
And often used in styles irregular rythmic accents... I myself to be honest when I play jazz do not control it thoroughly.
Besides there are techniques like sweep that are supposedly stricltly technical.
In modern methods and styles picking style often is discussed only from point of speed and convinience... as if as you say the tone and force should be always equal.

Another point - in electric guitar different phrasing tools like legatos for example are much more noticeable than the difference between up and down strokes - so mayybe people just do not defferetiate it? I do not know...

I do not mind others do that of course

I just think we should use some natural qualities of our body as advantages... not trying to overcome them and make them all the same.
I just do not see what for.

Besides - in music notes are not even - this is what is important I believe - they are never even.

Like dancers they do not have they same quality movement or jump starting from both legs usually - and good choreographer knows and uses it.

But I am not for the argument here of course!