Slurring and legato: differences?

[inwalkedbud]

uh, the debate seems to be around the term legato, not slur. a very clear definition was provided early on that said legato does not require slurring end to end (although I don't know what the source was beyond wikipedia). i agree with that particular definition and can find no credible source that invalidates it.


my point is that the passage in question is played legato - both by the guitar and the rest of the orchestra.

the strings play it legato - with slurs.
the guitarist plays it legato - without slurs.

but because it is not slurred throughout by the guitarist, Jonah calls it "non-legato". It's just my opinion, but i think that's hair splitting.

final note - the point about staccato is hypothetical and moot. the fact is, no one plays it staccato. it is not marked that way, it is not played that way.

ciao.

I agree with all of that. My point... was that the example you cited (of the 11 note scale run under a slur mark) was (more likely) a phrase mark and not actually a slur in the first place. Just made an observation.

really? someone needs a phrase mark to tell them to play 11 notes straight down a scale in sixteenth notes?

You responded with that. I explained clearly why a composer might use a phrase mark in that situation. That's all. I mentioned the phrase mark as an aside in my original post. I just thought that in a "legato-vs-slur" discussion, the very common confusion over "slur-vs-phrase mark" might be relevant. Especially since the example you highlighted might very well be a prime example of that confusion and, therefore, not the best example to cite in this particular discussion.

[fumblefingers]

maybe it is a phrase mark, maybe not.

bottom line - the composer and conductors seem to have have made it clear to the best guitarists and their accompanying orchestras that it is to be played legato. and they do.

[Jonah]

Bream plays technical slur at the first two notes and after that he does not play legato - it is for sure

Slurs as signs mean plenty of things - motion, aspiration.. this is a long tradition, do not take it that litteral, there are no strict didfinitions, no book where we can check, just experience, tradition, musical hearing... my personal scores are full of hand-written slurs (signs) even in the descendong scale lines - I can scan a page and mail to you to show how it works for me... it is the way of thinking, it is not strict recomendation that can be somehow strictly completed and guaratee a result...

[fumblefingers]

Before Gould nobody played most of the pieces he played staccato. He often ignored composer's marks. Of course he is exceptional performer, but still it is possible that one day some performer plays it stacatto and it it will be convincing.

You saw those performances they actually play whatever they want wherever they want with little care of what the whole piece is - only Bream shows understanding...

Here is the case when phrasing and articulation are connected.

theoretically the most correct way of playing it would be something that I would call portato.

for the guitarist you mean? (certainly not for the string players, given that they bow in a single direction).

regardless, i can see that you're dug in on this.

of course, such discussions of articulated legato, slurred staccato, semi-staccato, mezzo-staccato, and non-legato, etc. are not the language of jazzers in general, and jazz guitarists in particular. (or any folk or pop style for that matter. one would have to presume a classical background on the part of the practitioners. ahem.)

i guess you could always continue this discussion in the other styles or classical guitar thread.

[inwalkedbud]

maybe it is a phrase mark, maybe not.

bottom line - the composer and conductors seem to have have made it clear to the best guitarists and their accompanying orchestras that it is to be played legato. and they do.

yup... we're arguing about a fairly small point here I suppose.

He plays legato without slurring. Agreed.

[Vladan]

Here's another question: Is it possible to slur a string of notes of different lengths?

It is definetly possible to play them legato, whichever way you understand the term, but having different lengths would
impose some kind off rhythm, completely natural and involuntary rhythmic accent, no matter how uniform in volume and
attack you'd play all the notes. Would that still be sluring?

[Jonah]

for the guitarist you mean?

yes

of course, such discussions of articulated legato, slurred staccato, semi-staccato, mezzo-staccato, and non-legato, etc. are not the language of jazzers in general, and jazz guitarists in particular. (or any folk or pop style for that matter. one would have to presume a classical background on the part of the practitioners. ahem.)

yes you are right, bur the question came here and actually it was pretty quickly ansewred exactly like it is concerned pop/rock and jazz players mostly...
but somebody decided that some details are needed... and it was not me.

i guess you could always continue this discussion in the other styles or classical guitar thread.

What would you do in this case?

[Jonah]

Here's another question: Is it possible to slur a string of notes of different lengths?

to me it depends on sustain and sensitiviety and response of the instrument... why not?

[fumblefingers]

yes



yes you are right, bur the question came here and actually it was pretty quickly ansewred exactly like it is concerned pop/rock and jazz players mostly...
but somebody decided that some details are needed... and it was not me.



What would you do in this case?

nothing