Slurring and legato: differences?

[fumblefingers]

This sounds more like Plato's dialogue)))

You see, once again and again I would like to say that I speak about commpn practice of using these words.
If you come back to my first post in the thread you will see that I did not say anything new ever since.

In common sence both terms are used fo rthe same thing, having at the same time other meanings (we already all named these meanings).

I do not think that using these words like this is incorrect. The term 'slur' does not seem to be also so determined.

Abstractly legato is the matter of hearing, what you hear as legato is understood thus only in comparison with other articulations, and this also depnds on experince and hearing of the person..

Besides this personal issue, there si also a kind of conventional undertanting and usage - and in this conventional usage legato on guitar practically means technical method together with general abstract articulation method.

Also if you say to violinst to play legato he will play it with the same bow - no doubt (untill the bow is over and then he will have to change it to back motion as well as guitar player has to pick also changing the string (mostly))

This is what I meant.
I do not see any reason to make it so complex.

My next comment


was also quite correct, because I said "rather non legato" and in playing classical music at least it will be really so in most cases, even if Segovia will play it I will hear it as 'non legato' in comparison to may general understanding how legato can sound on classical guitar. This is quite conventional case to me.

Of course maybe to someone ithis 'non leagato' will sounf like 'legato' - but what can I do about it?

Please, note that 'non legato' is actually quite smoothe, at least in the practice I have dealt with.



PS
By the way in my native language (and some other European languages) there's no equivalent to 'slur' in technical sence, there's only 'legato' word used for every sence, maybe it effects also my notion.

Hmm. Well Segovia certainly used the term slur in his book of "Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves".

BTW - that descending D major scale in Rodrigo's Concerto is marked with a slur from start to finish, G down to D.

When the string players play the same phrase they indeed appear to bow in one direction, to your point.

But both Pepe and Williams appear/sound as they pluck every note. Are these maestros playing it....... incorrectly?

[fumblefingers]

OK Jonah. I understand non-legato or less legato now. Wasn't familiar with that terminology so I learned something.

its a grey area. In all sincerity I don't think that jazz guitarists will concern themselves with this degree of term specificity. Firstly, because most of what they play is not written/notated, and secondarily because they play a style of music that is informal and not so conservatory oriented. They work out such considerations by sound and feel.

theoretically speaking, everyone should be able to play slurred lines (hammer ons and pull offs) faster than all picked lines, irrespective of intent to play legato/smooth or not. It has been my observation that jazzers who are able to play very fast while picking (almost) every note, choose to do so as their primary approach to playing, and that those who only play fast via slurs do so because they are unable to pick as fast as those in the first group. It seems to me that the ideal situation would be to be able to do either, and solely based on artistic choice.

i think that some jazz guitar fans are under the impression that fast slurred playing is more hip or current or superior in some way. In my opinion they have formed this opinion based on admiration for a hot current player or three.

[nick1994]

i think that some jazz guitar fans are under the impression that fast slurred playing is more hip or current or superior in some way. In my opinion they have formed this opinion based on admiration for a hot current player or three.

Fumblefingers, could you post some examples of the current hot players?

[fumblefingers]

Fumblefingers, could you post some examples of the current hot players?

why?

[nick1994]

Because Im interested in slur playing but I don't know alot of players apart from jim hall, pat metheny and scofield that use slurs alot

[TonyB56]

try Herb Ellis, Barney Kessell, Tal Farlow etc.

[Jonah]

OK Jonah.

Dear fumberlings, mostly I agree with all you wrote in your last messages

Except that I think Williams slured at least two notes there)))

And anyway it is not about playing correctly or incorrectly

[fumblefingers]

Dear fumberlings, mostly I agree with all you wrote in your last messages

Except that I think Williams slured at least two notes there)))

And anyway it is not about playing correctly or incorrectly

did he? I'll have to listen again.

i think that Pepe plays that entire passage more... audibly. It is marked fortissimo at the start and pianissimo at the end so it may be that Williams (and his accompanying orchestra in this instance) were actually playing it more closely to the composers marking. What do you think?

and your point about correctly or incorrectly, yes I agree.

And a final question. Would you say that "non legato" is a type of legato, and hence, legato? Or would you say that it is exactly mid way between legato and "not" legato? Or would you say that it is expressly NOT legato?

Cheers.

[fumblefingers]

Because Im interested in slur playing but I don't know alot of players apart from jim hall, pat metheny and scofield that use slurs alot

Well if you add Holdsworth to that list that should inform you quite thoroughly.

beyond that I think it would be easier to list the number of players under 45 years of age who DON'T rely on slurs to achieve burning, break neck speed. The list is fairly short, insofar as I've observed.

[nick1994]

I think slurring is a more modern approach, so to find slurrers from 40 years ago is a lot harder than finding players now who use slurring as their main approach.

[Jonah]

did he? I'll have to listen again.

i think that Pepe plays that entire passage more... audibly. It is marked fortissimo at the start and pianissimo at the end so it may be that Williams (and his accompanying orchestra in this instance) were actually playing it more closely to the composers marking. What do you think?

Musically I do not like Williams here, it is played without meaning to me and very much ignoring music - he is like playing the way it is convimient for him without thinking too much about music. Pepe sounds better to me - but also not very well, this is not folk flamenco piece (though origins from folk music) and he plays a little bit roughly with less nuances and details that it requires.
For example beginning line in eighths is all staccatto in the score. Both Williams and Pepe play it in a mixed aticulation, Williams slightly, Pepe grossly - and it is not good here, they are like stressing the 5th eignth of the bar showing the dancing origin of the tune - it is written in 6/8 (3+3), but is performed actually 2+2+2 with sincopating of the 5th eigth...
though this is in the nature of this music it should not be played like this here because it is quiete classical elaborated concerto, and it is more exquisite than folk music, it is a kind personal composer's understanding and thinking on folk music with classical means.
There's enough syncopating in the music itself no need to stress it, beside it is only the beginning, there will be time to show this rythm feature in full power.
They could play non legato or even legato but they should not have altered articulation all the way, this is grossand unmusical here.

I also checked Julian Bream - I am not a big fan of him - but he is far above both Pepe and Williams, he has fantastic sound control capability.
He plays those eighths as stacatto and it's sounds much better.
This fast line he also plays sforzando (I checked the score there is fff to ppp, and legaro slur (sign I mean))
He also plays the second note slured, but I do not see a big problem here, any classical guitarist would do it. That is what they teach: when you play legato cannot play slyr all the way, so try to make the 'non-slurred' notes as smoothe as equal to slurred as possible. But they will differ anyway, but it's ok, it is a kind of instrumental feature of guitar, it just should not be too much, too rough.
I belive that legato in different instrument can also be understood differtnly.

This is for your question

I undestand ' non legato' as something more or less 'normal' (relatively to current tradion and practice as I feel it from my experience) - that is how I would play it without trying to make shorten, or smoother.
In the scores non legato is usually put to cancel legato, or to prevent legato in the lines where it is expected the performer mught choose this articulation following the performance tradion and composer would not like it to be like this (usually in this case non leagato is very important musically - becasue we expect unconciesly legato here but it does not come).
there can be also legatissimo, meno legato and other italian variation, I understand more or less flexible, and they should be underatood realtively to what was set as leagto in the piece, and what is considered to be legato in current performing tradion in this style of music on this instrument. Approximately like this....

And the other point: integrity of the line and feeling of smoothness is not always conneted with technical legato, much depends on music, Glenn Gould could play staccato even ignoring often composer's notes but he sounded more integral more smooth than those who played correct legato... but this is for the exeptional players, of course, only)))

[Almeisan]

The 'slur' is the music notation symbol. Sheesh, guys. It is on the first page. 'Legoto' is the sound, 'slur' is the notation used when writing in western musical notation (you jazz cats do know about that, right?).

It is a curved line of black ink on a white piece of paper, connecting two notes of different pitch.

Hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, are techniques used to play legato. But if you don't sight read, you don't read or play slurs.


(you guys all seem to have given the word 'slur' your own colloquial meaning.)


And the opposite of 'legato' is 'staccato'.

[Jonah]

(you guys all seem to have given the word 'slur' your own colloquial meaning.)

one guy - well... could be a mistake, two - also maybe... but when 'you all guys', it means something changed in the language.
Language is living...

By the way slide, is it not glissando?)))

[inwalkedbud]

BTW - that descending D major scale in Rodrigo's Concerto is marked with a slur from start to finish, G down to D.

Ahhh the age-old question of "slur" or "phrase mark" ... in that particular instance I would say probably phrase mark but that is not even nearly my point (in fact kind of contrary to my point). Also... the scale runs in that piece are the benchmark by which concert classical guitarists are judged. They're super god****ed difficult to play (let alone at tempo) - so legato in that instance would be relative (again - off topic and purely my own opinion). But also from a classical perspective and in all my practice as a classical guitarist - slurring and legato are not the same thing. You can play grace notes in baroque music and articulate at the bridge and those slurs will sound snappy and bright. Point being - you can even slur without actually playing a legato phrase. Another thing is that classical music notation has changed so much over the years it's sometimes difficult to know what markings come from the composer, what are simply notated common performance practice, and what are artistic decisions made by the editor. There are courses in college where you can learn how to interpret different markings from different time periods because sometimes the same marking in one score means something entirely different in another. Bottom line ---- hear the music, adjust your technique to facilitate what you hear. No biggie.

[fumblefingers]

Ahhh the age-old question of "slur" or "phrase mark" ... in that particular instance I would say probably phrase mark but that is not even nearly my point (in fact kind of contrary to my point). Also... the scale runs in that piece are the benchmark by which concert classical guitarists are judged. They're super god****ed difficult to play (let alone at tempo) - so legato in that instance would be relative (again - off topic and purely my own opinion). But also from a classical perspective and in all my practice as a classical guitarist - slurring and legato are not the same thing. You can play grace notes in baroque music and articulate at the bridge and those slurs will sound snappy and bright. Point being - you can even slur without actually playing a legato phrase. Another thing is that classical music notation has changed so much over the years it's sometimes difficult to know what markings come from the composer, what are simply notated common performance practice, and what are artistic decisions made by the editor. There are courses in college where you can learn how to interpret different markings from different time periods because sometimes the same marking in one score means something entirely different in another. Bottom line ---- hear the music, adjust your technique to facilitate what you hear. No biggie.

really? someone needs a phrase mark to tell them to play 11 notes straight down a scale in sixteenth notes?

whatever works I guess.

[Jonah]

really? someone needs a phrase mark to tell them to play 11 notes straight down a scale in sixteenth notes?

That makes difference. The slur in the score is more of phrasing than real legato. inwalkedbud is right.
Someone who needed this is a composer.
This is more about meaning, you can play it staccato if you can make a phrase of it and it will work.

[fumblefingers]

That makes difference. The slur in the score is more of phrasing than real legato. inwalkedbud is right.
Someone who needed this is a composer.
This is more about meaning, you can play it staccato if you can make a phrase of it and it will work.

it will work eh? staccato? show me.

[inwalkedbud]

Just saying. You actually think he intended those 11 notes to be slurred? Probably not. A phrase mark can be interpreted as a signal for the performer to play the 11 notes as one big phrase as opposed to breaking the phrase by accenting the first in each group of triplets or sixteenth notes as is common for performers to default to doing on fast passages. Sorry. Definitely phrase mark. Not a slur. If you have any thoughts on how to slur all 11 of the notes then Show me.

[Jonah]

it will work eh? staccato? show me.

Do you hear the phrases here

?


it is articulation in general... you know there's video on youtube where youn pianist Pletnev plays the old piano that belonged to Tchaikowski someday - and there is Horowitz in the room..
we can hear the piano is old and out of tune probably permanently... then after a short time Horwitz comes uo and starts to play and piano sounds in tune
Is it possible? It is articualtion, phrasing and sound control - the slur, the word legato is just a hint - it is like you see in a theater play remark: Enters - so amny ways how an actor can enter, or Laughing - how will he laugh? Where will he stay/sit/look? so many ways...

PS
By the way have you seen the sign of dots together with the slur?

[johnny67]

Aren't these two word defined anywhere?

Why must people debate things that can easily be looked up.

[Jonah]

Aren't these two word defined anywhere?

Why must people debate things that can easily be looked up.

Sure... and who will be the definer? Some extrasupercompetent guy?

[cosmic gumbo]

Sure... and who will be the definer?

The conductor.

[Jonah]

The conductor

Exactly!

But it may be a little too expesive to have a conductor for every solo piece.

[fumblefingers]

Just saying. You actually think he intended those 11 notes to be slurred? Probably not. A phrase mark can be interpreted as a signal for the performer to play the 11 notes as one big phrase as opposed to breaking the phrase by accenting the first in each group of triplets or sixteenth notes as is common for performers to default to doing on fast passages. Sorry. Definitely phrase mark. Not a slur. If you have any thoughts on how to slur all 11 of the notes then Show me.

uh, the debate seems to be around the term legato, not slur. a very clear definition was provided early on that said legato does not require slurring end to end (although I don't know what the source was beyond wikipedia). i agree with that particular definition and can find no credible source that invalidates it.


my point is that the passage in question is played legato - both by the guitar and the rest of the orchestra.

the strings play it legato - with slurs.
the guitarist plays it legato - without slurs.

but because it is not slurred throughout by the guitarist, Jonah calls it "non-legato". It's just my opinion, but i think that's hair splitting.

final note - the point about staccato is hypothetical and moot. the fact is, no one plays it staccato. it is not marked that way, it is not played that way.

ciao.

[Jonah]

final note - the point about staccato is hypothetical and moot. the fact is, no one plays it staccato. it is not marked that way, it is not played that way.

Before Gould nobody played most of the pieces he played staccato. He often ignored composer's marks. Of course he is exceptional performer, but still it is possible that one day some performer plays it stacatto and it it will be convincing.

You saw those performances they actually play whatever they want wherever they want with little care of what the whole piece is - only Bream shows understanding...

Here is the case when phrasing and articulation are connected.

theoretically the most correct way of playing it would be something that I would call portato.