Alternate Picking (Floating hand VS Anchored)

[christianm77]

Yes, it does matter when you play acoustic for the projection, like you mention. And those gypsy jazz players need to get a lot of volume out of their instruments, just like the jazz players with weak (or no?) amps in the past, when they tried to match the sound of the huge orchestra. I should have been a bit more lax in my statement. And of course, an ergonomically "good" technique is of course always better than one where you have to strain your muscles.

To this day there is a difference between the jazz archtop 'amplified acoustic approach' (Bruno, Benson etc), and the more modern pure electric approach (Metheny, Rosenwinkel etc.)

Both are valid needless to say ;-)

[Vladan]

Guitar amps were invented for a reason.

[christianm77]

Guitar amps were invented for a reason.

And yet something very beautiful is lost when we use them. But yes, the guitar is hilariously impractical acoustic instrument.

That said, I do enjoy the fact that if I have to play in a situation where there is no power, I can make a fist of it. That's important to me.

Interesting thing is that when amps first came in, a lot of the guitar players sounded quite obnoxious - really punching it out. Django was a total menace apparently, always too loud. All those years of frustration :-)

[MatsP]

And yet something very beautiful is lost when we use them. But yes, the guitar is hilariously impractical acoustic instrument.

That said, I do enjoy the fact that if I have to play in a situation where there is no power, I can make a fist of it. That's important to me.

Interesting thing is that when amps first came in, a lot of the guitar players sounded quite obnoxious - really punching it out. Django was a total menace apparently, always too loud. All those years of frustration :-)

Haha... yes. They really hit the guitars hard in the beginning. Compare that to Yngwie Malmsteen's feather-like touch. He doesn't need a lot of attack with all that compression and distortion. Not to say he is a jazz guitarist, I'm just comparing approaches.

[christianm77]

Haha... yes. They really hit the guitars hard in the beginning. Compare that to Yngwie Malmsteen's feather-like touch. He doesn't need a lot of attack with all that compression and distortion. Not to say he is a jazz guitarist, I'm just comparing approaches.

I was kind of under the impression Yngwie picked relatively firmly... He doesn't use masses of drive to my ear (very possibly I am wrong here, of course)

[MatsP]

I was kind of under the impression Yngwie picked relatively firmly... He doesn't use masses of drive to my ear (very possibly I am wrong here, of course)

Well, judigng by his right hand in videos I've seen, it looks like he merely grazes the strings. And he does have a lot of compression going on, that much I know. Maybe not so much distortion. Another thing, I once saw him playing acoustic guitar at a Swedish program, and the sound was VERY weak. An indication that he doesn't use a lot of attack.

[christianm77]

Well, judigng by his right hand in videos I've seen, it looks like he merely grazes the strings. And he does have a lot of compression going on, that much I know. Maybe not so much distortion. Another thing, I once saw him playing acoustic guitar at a Swedish program, and the sound was VERY weak. An indication that he doesn't use a lot of attack.

Interesting. Still gets a good electric tone though I think (I really like his sound even though I find his music unintentionally hilarious) - only goes to show...

Funny thing is if Troy Grady is to be believed, Yngwie actually uses a variant of rest stroke picking. So maybe it's possible to dial it up and down in intensity for acoustic and electric - maybe this is what Birelli does?

[MatsP]

Interesting. Still gets a good electric tone though I think (I really like his sound even though I find his music unintentionally hilarious) - only goes to show...

Funny thing is if Troy Grady is to be believed, Yngwie actually uses a variant of rest stroke picking. So maybe it's possible to dial it up and down in intensity for acoustic and electric - maybe this is what Birelli does?

Yes, I've seen that stuff. Yngwie doesn't angle his pick as much as Troy states, though. And all this thing about starting on a downstroke every time you switch strings is severely limiting in my book. One should be able to use any type of stroke.

[christianm77]

Yes, I've seen that stuff. Yngwie doesn't angle his pick as much as Troy states, though. And all this thing about starting on a downstroke every time you switch strings is severely limiting in my book. One should be able to use any type of stroke.

Hoo boy lets not get into that :-)

I would say from my own experience that I can use Gypsy picking to execute most things that aren't absolutely burning, and for some of the tricky aspects I can cheat a bit with odd upstroke without completely changing my technique. Troy's stuff really focusses on the biomechanics of the shred stuff, so for 8th note lines jazz lines, we aren't quite entering this regime. Economy of motion isn't as important here.

In any case Troy offers a few 'cheats' involving hammer-ons and pull-offs and so on that actually to me sound better than pure picking (I don't really like all picked playing) and allow you to execute phrases going up the strings in combinations of 3 notes (for example a descending scale) that would be very tricky using this approach otherwise.

For true everything picked alternate styles (such as Al di Meola) Troy goes on to examine two way pick slanting. I haven't really looked into that because I don't want to get that sound.

I haven't studied Yngwie too much, so I will take your word for it. I do remember Troy specifically mentioning that Yngwie's pick slanting is relatively subtle, but he is demonstrating the technique so that we can clearly see it. You don't need much pick slanting to miss the adjacent string on the upstroke, especially if you use a small pick or don't have much pick projecting (which is presumably one of the reasons why jazz III's are quite popular with 'technical' players.)

You can experiment with this yourself.

That's one of the things that makes up and down slanting so hard to spot, but I can't argue with the mechanics. You need to angle your pick to miss the string. This is why I find string skipping isn't really an issue with Rest stroke picking, but is a pain in the ass for many alternate pickers.

Interestingly, I use to be an upslanter :-) Then I got into acoustic.

From my limited knowledge of their styles, I found his Yngwie and Eric Johnson lesson pretty convincing. You may well beg to differ. I really like the electric tone of these two players (though I would use less gain if possible) so even though I am not a fan, although more so of Eric, I am interested to find out more info.

In any case, the aim here is not to champion Troy Grady. The appeal for me is I don't have to completely change my acoustic technique in order to play electric - if he is right.

[MatsP]

Hoo boy lets not get into that :-)

I would say from my own experience that I can use Gypsy picking to execute most things that aren't absolutely burning, and for some of the tricky aspects I can cheat a bit with odd upstroke without completely changing my technique. Troy's stuff really focusses on the biomechanics of the shred stuff, so for 8th note lines jazz lines, we aren't quite entering this regime. Economy of motion isn't as important here.

In any case Troy offers a few 'cheats' involving hammer-ons and pull-offs and so on that actually to me sound better than pure picking (I don't really like all picked playing) and allow you to execute phrases going up the strings in combinations of 3 notes (for example a descending scale) that would be very tricky using this approach otherwise.

For true everything picked alternate styles (such as Al di Meola) Troy goes on to examine two way pick slanting. I haven't really looked into that because I don't want to get that sound.

I haven't studied Yngwie too much, so I will take your word for it. I do remember Troy specifically mentioning that Yngwie's pick slanting is relatively subtle, but he is demonstrating the technique so that we can clearly see it. You don't need much pick slanting to miss the adjacent string on the upstroke, especially if you use a small pick or don't have much pick projecting (which is presumably one of the reasons why jazz III's are quite popular with 'technical' players.)

You can experiment with this yourself.

That's one of the things that makes up and down slanting so hard to spot, but I can't argue with the mechanics. You need to angle your pick to miss the string. This is why I find string skipping isn't really an issue with Rest stroke picking, but is a pain in the ass for many alternate pickers.

Interestingly, I use to be an upslanter :-) Then I got into acoustic.

From my limited knowledge of their styles, I found his Yngwie and Eric Johnson lesson pretty convincing. You may well beg to differ. I really like the electric tone of these two players (though I would use less gain if possible) so even though I am not a fan, although more so of Eric, I am interested to find out more info.

In any case, the aim here is not to champion Troy Grady. The appeal for me is I don't have to completely change my acoustic technique in order to play electric - if he is right.

Leaving all that aside, I'm still struggling with my alternate picking

Cheers

[MatsP]

Leaving all that aside, I'm still struggling with my alternate picking

Cheers

I should add that I don't really like Troy's "surgical" analysis of the way other people pick. What's more, we are all built differently, and the technique used by one person doesn't necessarily suit other persons. One thing that I *do* know is that keeping the wrist straight is paramount for getting the most torque, at least for me

Take care

[christianm77]

Leaving all that aside, I'm still struggling with my alternate picking

Cheers

That's because alternate picking is really hard! Don't do it kids ;-)

[MatsP]

I should add that I don't really like Troy's "surgical" analysis of the way other people pick. What's more, we are all built differently, and the technique used by one person doesn't necessarily suit other persons. One thing that I *do* know is that keeping the wrist straight is paramount for getting the most torque, at least for me

Take care

By the way, I found this by Frank Gambale at his site:

"Your right arm is naturally at a 45 degree angle to the strings...always maintain that angle. Lay your right hand flat/open on the strings...then close the four fingers like a fist with the thumb sticking out....add the pick between thumb and fist and that's my basic hand position. You can extend your little finger out for support if you want to touch the body of the guitar or scratchplate but don't anchor, leave it free to move.
Keep the pick at that 45 degree angle the whole time. Keep the wrist straight....don't block the blood flow because that's what causes problems..
Now you have a perfectly natural right hand position.
I hope this helps.later,
FG"

It all sounds very sensible, except for the part where he says that the pick should be at a 45 degree angle. Personally I think it sounds like sh*t, and the attack will be very mushy. I've seen a lot of players bend their thumb slightly backwards in order to get a flatter angle to the string. What's your opinion on this subject?

[christianm77]

I should add that I don't really like Troy's "surgical" analysis of the way other people pick. What's more, we are all built differently, and the technique used by one person doesn't necessarily suit other persons. One thing that I *do* know is that keeping the wrist straight is paramount for getting the most torque, at least for me

Take care

It's good to try different things, see what works best. Rotational picking has worked for some great players, but I've always found it a struggle.

Using a free stroke floating hand technique, IMO, is the hardest way to pick as you have no physical reference points. I think this is borne out by the fact that players who in fact use this technique are in a distinct minority.

One question - why do you feel it is important to have 'torque.'?

Good luck with your quest!

[MatsP]

It's good to try different things, see what works best. Rotational picking has worked for some great players, but I've always found it a struggle.

Using a free stroke floating hand technique, IMO, is the hardest way to pick as you have no physical reference points. I think this is borne out by the fact that players who in fact use this technique are in a distinct minority.

One question - why do you feel it is important to have 'torque.'?

Good luck with your quest!

Well, perhaps not massive amounts of torque, but at least a free flowing wrist movement without tension, so to say. And I do agree on the free floating hand technique. It is very hard to get any amount of precision with that one. There is a good analogy to writing, you don't hold your hand in the air when you write, but it rests lightly on the table.

[GuyBoden]

This is interesting, well to me at least.

[MatsP]

This is interesting, well to me at least.

Yep, nice stuff. I've actually been into this myself, without even knowing that it's called "Scalpel" or "Sarod" picking. Then I read in several places that moving your fingers is a big no-no, so I tried to get rid of my finger movement. Seems it is valid after all

[GuyBoden]

Yep, nice stuff. I've actually been into this myself, without even knowing that it's called "Scalpel" or "Sarod" picking. Then I read in several places that moving your fingers is a big no-no, so I tried to get rid of my finger movement. Seems it is valid after all

I've seen Trefor Owen play using that "Scalpel" style for many, many years.

[MatsP]

I've seen Trefor Owen play using that "Scalpel" style for many, many years.

Great! If you read what I posted about Frank Gambale and his 45 degree pick angle, I have a really hard getting it to sound good with that approach. And if one uses a pointy pick like Jazz III, it will easily stick, and there will be less movement of the pick itself in the hand. It really needs this movement because of its thickness. A thinner pick flexes by itself, so to say. Gambale uses a standard 351 shape pick, and that's easier to hold at an angle in my book.

[GuyBoden]

By the way, I found this by Frank Gambale at his site:

"Your right arm is naturally at a 45 degree angle to the strings...always maintain that angle. Lay your right hand flat/open on the strings...then close the four fingers like a fist with the thumb sticking out....add the pick between thumb and fist and that's my basic hand position. You can extend your little finger out for support if you want to touch the body of the guitar or scratchplate but don't anchor, leave it free to move.
Keep the pick at that 45 degree angle the whole time. Keep the wrist straight....don't block the blood flow because that's what causes problems..
Now you have a perfectly natural right hand position.
I hope this helps.later,
FG"

It all sounds very sensible, except for the part where he says that the pick should be at a 45 degree angle. Personally I think it sounds like sh*t, and the attack will be very mushy. I've seen a lot of players bend their thumb slightly backwards in order to get a flatter angle to the string. What's your opinion on this subject?

Great! If you read what I posted about Frank Gambale and his 45 degree pick angle, I have a really hard getting it to sound good with that approach. And if one uses a pointy pick like Jazz III, it will easily stick, and there will be less movement of the pick itself in the hand. It really needs this movement because of its thickness. A thinner pick flexes by itself, so to say. Gambale uses a standard 351 shape pick, and that's easier to hold at an angle in my book.

I use a very similar picking method to Frank Gamble, I think Jimmy Bruno uses a similar method to Frank Gamble too, obviously many players watched Frank Gambale's videos when we were young. So, yes it's about a 45 degree pick angle to the strings, but the difference is I use a rounder pick not pointed.

For a practice, try using the side of the pick not the point, and see if you like the sound.

Hope that's helpful.

[MatsP]

I use a very similar picking method to Frank Gamble, I think Jimmy Bruno uses a similar method to Frank Gamble too, obviously many players watched Frank Gambale's videos when we were young. So, yes it's about a 45 degree pick angle to the strings, but the difference is I use a rounder pick not pointed.

For a practice, try using the side of the pick not the point, and see if you like the sound.

Hope that's helpful.

Well, I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, but the attack will really suffer with a 45 degree angle, and the sound on the lower wound strings will be really scratchy.

[christianm77]

A lot of the big silly GJ picks I use have a bevel in which has a similar effect to the angling the pick

[christianm77]

Also, I have a friend who has great Benson picking chops - watching him play his pick angle is almost perpendicular to the strings. It creates a very different attack on the string, it must be said.

[MatsP]

Also, I have a friend who has great Benson picking chops - watching him play his pick angle is almost perpendicular to the strings. It creates a very different attack on the string, it must be said.

You mean like a "+" where there vertical bar is the pick? Not much sound out of that one if you use a rounded pick

[christianm77]

You mean like a "+" where there vertical bar is the pick? Not much sound out of that one if you use a rounded pick

Yes, almost. It slices through the string IRRC. I was looking at Sheryl Bailey videos and she has more of a 45 degree angle though.

BTW this friend is also an accomplished GJ player. Show off.