Alternate Picking (Floating hand VS Anchored)

[MatsP]

TOTALLY wrong.

Floating hands always play too hard, always have a built in inaccuracy, and they sound as stiff as the whitest lamearse nonsense you'll ever hear.

It's simnple physics. The closer you can anchor to the point where you pick, the greater your accuracy. This is PHYSICS and fact. No amount of nonsensical posturing can disprove that. With a close anchor comes confidence, and with confidence comes relaxation and a better feel.

I also notice that the tone on higher strings get better with some type of anchor, like resting the palm against the bridge or lower strings. This is probably because the pick cuts through the string on an axis approaching 90 degrees rather than if you just hover above it, since then there is a tendency for the pick to "slice" through the string sideways (at least in my book).

[MarkRhodes]

To this day there is a difference between the jazz archtop 'amplified acoustic approach' (Bruno, Benson etc), and the more modern pure electric approach (Metheny, Rosenwinkel etc.)

Both are valid needless to say ;-)

It is interesting in this context that Herb Ellis---who played laminates---said he preferred them because they didn't have much acoustic sound. He didn't like the mix of acoustic and electric sound. To his ears, if an electric guitar had a rich acoustic sound, he didn't want it. Point being, he was an electric guitar player but he had a 'classic' (as opposed to 'modern pure electric') sound.

[MatsP]

It is interesting in this context that Herb Ellis---who played laminates---said he preferred them because they didn't have much acoustic sound. He didn't like the mix of acoustic and electric sound. To his ears, if an electric guitar had a rich acoustic sound, he didn't want it. Point being, he was an electric guitar player but he had a 'classic' (as opposed to 'modern pure electric') sound.

That's interesting, since he also used one of those Van Eps string dampers. Obviously he wanted a virtually "dead" sounding instrument acoustically

[MatsP]

I also notice that the tone on higher strings get better with some type of anchor, like resting the palm against the bridge or lower strings. This is probably because the pick cuts through the string on an axis approaching 90 degrees rather than if you just hover above it, since then there is a tendency for the pick to "slice" through the string sideways (at least in my book).

Well, actually it doesn't have as much to do with the anchoring as the angle of the hand. The tone gets slightly meatier perhaps, due to the contact between the hand and the bridge, but the main problem is that I have been using a "strumming" motion when i played floating before. No wonder the tone will suffer on higher strings. I suppose I have to make sure to travel through the string more towards a 90 degree angle.

[MatsP]

Well, actually it doesn't have as much to do with the anchoring as the angle of the hand. The tone gets slightly meatier perhaps, due to the contact between the hand and the bridge, but the main problem is that I have been using a "strumming" motion when i played floating before. No wonder the tone will suffer on higher strings. I suppose I have to make sure to travel through the string more towards a 90 degree angle.

It's not really the angle of the hand, but the angle that the pick travels through the string. You will need a different motion of the hand to change that, kind of.

[christianm77]

Interesting stuff. I had no idea.

BTW - lute technique is anchored, and I would have thought that was an instrument that required a completely free sound board to project. Hmmm.....

[MatsP]

Interesting stuff. I had no idea.

BTW - lute technique is anchored, and I would have thought that was an instrument that required a completely free sound board to project. Hmmm.....

Yeah, me too.

[MatsP]

Speaking of something related, look at the floating right hand of Joe Pass in this rare video where he's using a pick. He's bending the wrist like he's strumming, which makes it virtually impossible to dampen lower strings in my book. Perhaps he's doing it with his left hand instead? Who knows...

[christianm77]

Speaking of something related, look at the floating right hand of Joe Pass in this rare video where he's using a pick. He's bending the wrist like he's strumming, which makes it virtually impossible to dampen lower strings in my book. Perhaps he's doing it with his left hand instead? Who knows...

He does seem to be placing his hand flat over the strings between phrases. Other than that maybe he's just very accurate...

[MatsP]

He does seem to be placing his hand flat over the strings between phrases. Other than that maybe he's just very accurate...

Well, no matter how accurate you are, the lower strings will resonate at a certain point no matter, unless you dampen them.

[MatsP]

Well, no matter how accurate you are, the lower strings will resonate at a certain point no matter, unless you dampen them.

But it may be that he dampens them on and off without my noticing it. Overall he looks very relaxed in his right hand, anyway.

[MatsP]

But it may be that he dampens them on and off without my noticing it. Overall he looks very relaxed in his right hand, anyway.

Well, I can't for my life see that he dampens the lower strings while playing figures. That's when they need to be dampened. Perhaps he's got some magic special variant of Fender Jaguar there

[christianm77]

Well, I can't for my life see that he dampens the lower strings while playing figures. That's when they need to be dampened. Perhaps he's got some magic special variant of Fender Jaguar there

I think he's a witch.

I played with the same sort of technique on electric and run into all sorts of problems, such as those you have described. I've gone back to an anchored hand for electric.

EDIT: it's OK if you are quite quiet though. But you need to whack the strings quite hard. Maybe heavy gauge strings and an amp on the quieter side of what most electric players would use?

[MatsP]

I think he's a witch.

I played with the same sort of technique on electric and run into all sorts of problems, such as those you have described. I've gone back to an anchored hand for electric.

EDIT: it's OK if you are quite quiet though. But you need to whack the strings quite hard. Maybe heavy gauge strings and an amp on the quieter side of what most electric players would use?

Yeah... I agree that it might work when playing quiet. But I don't think he plays THAT quiet here. Perhaps you're right on heavy gauge strings (.011 or .012 or so). In any case, that would be a nice hand to use if it wasn't for the ringing of the lower strings... oh well.

[Robertkoa]

This is a topic that interests me.

I have changed my technique many times. I started out alternate picking, then economy picking, but I always somewhat rested my palm on the bridge more or less so I never used a pure "floating" technique.

However, as I started learning gypsy jazz, I mimicked the technique of Stochelo Rosenberg to the best of my ability.
People who say that gypsy jazz players don't anchor are plain wrong. The most widely accepted and adopted gypsy picking right hand technique involves anchoring with the 3rd and 4th finger of the right hand. But there is no fixed point. The fingers barely touch the guitar, and the hand moves freely with the pick. The non-fixed anchor(the fingers slightly touch, "brush" against the guitar) helps facilitate loose and relaxed wrist movement and orientation. You want the movement to come from the wrist, and not the elbow.

Watch Stochelos right hand. He has the absolutely best gypsy picking right hand technique. For acoustic guitar, gypsy picking is simply superior.
This video gives a great view of his right hand:

I have adopted it to archtops now too(standardized my technique, prior to that I had different picking techniques for acoustic and electric), and sonically it gives a percussive Benson-type sound due to all the downstrokes.

Listen here to the percussiveness of gypsy picking on an archtop, maestro Rocky Gresset playing:

Actually, that video sold me on gypsy picking for archtops. Watch how elegantly and easy he plays with that technique.

Great. ( Stochelos)I like how he is softens his picking a bit sometimes which may be why you think it would be so effective on Archtop maybe .
I think so too.
In fact with higher action and pickups further from the strings this technique would sound great on any electric.
I have spent a lot of time smoothing out my picking so it's more sax like or almost like tapping sometimes but moving the pickups further from the strings enables harder picking to sound better also IMO as would heavier strings- since I am bending and using vibrato use 010 gauge.

Is this style considered " Gypsy" also ?
More varied rhythms in the melody lines big plus for my ears.
Like a modern Flamenco/Jazz but flatpicked.
I think that Electric Guitars often don't respond as well to brute force picking- really bashing the strings with the pick- as well as Acoustics and Nylons do but this Guy has some nuances and dynamics.
Very cool and soulful.

I have found it possible to get as percussive on upstrokes as downstrokes -as percussive as Benson anyway -not sure about the Gypsy guys-they sound pretty brutal -lol- luthiers have told me the Gypsy Jazz Players are brutal on frets also ...

The standards for right hand technique seem to be very high for Gypsy Players many of them have monster right hand technique.

[ChuckCorbis]

Johnny Smith talks about picking and phrasing. The elbow and wrist. Check it out around 10:40.

Here is one of Johnny's students on a solid body.
Bobby Montoya.

[Hep To The Jive]

Johnny Smith talks about picking and phrasing. The elbow and wrist. Check it out around 10:40.

Here is one of Johnny's students on a solid body.
Bobby Montoya.

In the first video @9:39 he plays what sounds exactly like the opening of Call of Ktulu by Metallica. I didnt know Hetfield was listening to Johnny Smith lol!

[christianm77]

Yeah... I agree that it might work when playing quiet. But I don't think he plays THAT quiet here. Perhaps you're right on heavy gauge strings (.011 or .012 or so). In any case, that would be a nice hand to use if it wasn't for the ringing of the lower strings... oh well.

.11 isn't heavy enough in this case IMO. I was thinking more like a .12+ set. Perhaps a light bottom/heavy top vibe... .14 or .13 top string... TI strings do this type of gauge...

Soooo... anyone know what strings Joe Pass used? ;-)

[christianm77]

Great. ( Stochelos)I like how he is softens his picking a bit sometimes which may be why you think it would be so effective on Archtop maybe .
I think so too.
In fact with higher action and pickups further from the strings this technique would sound great on any electric.
I have spent a lot of time smoothing out my picking so it's more sax like or almost like tapping sometimes but moving the pickups further from the strings enables harder picking to sound better also IMO as would heavier strings- since I am bending and using vibrato use 010 gauge.

Is this style considered " Gypsy" also ?
More varied rhythms in the melody lines big plus for my ears.
Like a modern Flamenco/Jazz but flatpicked.
I think that Electric Guitars often don't respond as well to brute force picking- really bashing the strings with the pick- as well as Acoustics and Nylons do but this Guy has some nuances and dynamics.
Very cool and soulful.

I have found it possible to get as percussive on upstrokes as downstrokes -as percussive as Benson anyway -not sure about the Gypsy guys-they sound pretty brutal -lol- luthiers have told me the Gypsy Jazz Players are brutal on frets also ...

The standards for right hand technique seem to be very high for Gypsy Players many of them have monster right hand technique.

Amazing playing from Bobby Montoya - not what I'm going for playing wise on electric, I want more legato or singing in my playing, but it is very Bensony for sure... I mean, it's stellar playing. You have to make choices based on how you want to sound, without needing to pull down other players because they have chosen another path. If that's your vibe, go smash it up :-)

I think I'm more like you Robert? I like to shade from hammer ons into picking on electric.

That video of Romain Pilon is more the sound that I would like to make. Very nice.

[Robertkoa]

Amazing playing from Bobby Montoya - not what I'm going for playing wise on electric, I want more legato or singing in my playing, but it is very Bensony for sure... I mean, it's stellar playing. You have to make choices based on how you want to sound, without needing to pull down other players because they have chosen another path. If that's your vibe, go smash it up :-)

I think I'm more like you Robert? I like to shade from hammer ons into picking on electric.

That video of Romain Pilon is more the sound that I would like to make. Very nice.

Yes although I don't hammer or tap- in fact even when I hammer I pick but can pick each note very softly when I want ( finally lol- NOT a natural who got excellent or great by age 15 or 20 ) to sound almost like tapping guys or pick harder like Benson but with "conventional" pick angle .

The "Tortex"picks are great for no pick noise even at weird angles and articulate well OR glide a la Eric Johnson depending on pick depth.

I am going to post a Video from Norman Brown who plays and sounds quite a bit like Benson with more "conventional" right hand.

[christianm77]

Yes although I don't hammer or tap- in fact even when I hammer I pick but can pick each note very softly when I want ( finally lol- NOT a natural who got excellent or great by age 15 or 20 ) to sound almost like tapping guys or pick harder like Benson but with "conventional" pick angle .

The "Tortex"picks are great for no pick noise even at weird angles and articulate well OR glide a la Eric Johnson depending on pick depth.

I am going to post a Video from Norman Brown who plays and sounds quite a bit like Benson with more "conventional" right hand.

I'll bear that in mind. Sometimes I practice with my tele with the bridge pickup, trying to eliminate the pick click... Pick angle and pick material are big factors....

[ChuckCorbis]

Amazing playing from Bobby Montoya - not what I'm going for playing wise on electric, I want more legato or singing in my playing, but it is very Bensony for sure... I mean, it's stellar playing. You have to make choices based on how you want to sound, without needing to pull down other players because they have chosen another path. If that's your vibe, go smash it up :-)

What's with the,

"If that's your vibe, go smash it up :-)"
comment ChristianM?
I mean, maybe you should post some of your playing, or if not, go smash it up yourself. I posted some of mine, lets hear some of yours. Love to hear this "legato" thing you're going for.

[Robertkoa]

I've taken the liberty to send an e-mail to the great Andreas Öberg himself regarding his picking technique, etc. Nowadays he uses a floating right hand, not only for gypsy guitar, but for electric guitar as well. He is very close to the strings though, and the hand touches them occasionally as some kind of reference. As far as I understand it, he uses a Dunlop Delrin 500 1.14 mm, and he only lets a small part of the tip show. To each his own. Steve Kaufman lets a lot more of the pick show, but he's a flatpicker on acoustic guitar, so I suppose he has different requirements. Andreas told me he uses a 1.12 mm pick, but they don't exist, as far as I know.

Delrin ...Tortex etc..Is really good IMO for minimal pick noise and you can get away with different angles and still have a uniform attack or smooth attack.

Attack or smooth attack staccato or legato (softer picking legato still picking ) is where
"Floating " kind of breaks down ...most floaters pick hard all the time...it's harder to
Gauge pick depth with no support IMO.

If you look at the Eric Johnson Videos ( I didn't learn this there..but a good example)
the edge of palm rests on the bridge or lower strings and helps mute unplayed strings..it's not really "anchored" it follows the picking motion across the strings and you can play above the fingerboard pickup also..

What is the supposed advantage of "Floating" ?

Hey if you use it and it works ..and you like it...fine...just less ability to mute and harder to gauge depth especially on Arpeggios.. and for fast tempos ,seems more treacherous to me..I'm already pushing the limits walking the tightrope lol.

"But Robert can you play that floating your picking hand and balancing a glass of water on your head ?"
No but I do use advanced Picking Technique by any Standard- finally.
No.Lol.
Actually if I lift up my picking hand "edge of palm" I am floating- does not affect the Mechanics of the Picking Motion either way.

So if you see me play you will just say I am not really " Anchored" .

But very lightly resting the "heel" of the Palm is what I do either on the lower strings or the Bridge - it defitely does not slow me down and I use a shallow pick depth ( still picking hard or soft) which enables alternating triplets across three strings repetitively in Rhythm- which would be very hard to "sweep".

But again the "edge of the picking hand palm" is lightly resting on the bridge OR the lower strings and barely touches the strings especially if I am really zipping around.

The Arm and entire Wrist don't change they follow the pick wherever it goes in a " uniform control arc" so again it's not anchored and if I lift up 1/4 Inch it is floating...
Depth Gauge and muting unplayed strings .

I'm not sure that you could say " anchoring" is wrong or a Limited Technique because there will always be some Monster Player somewhere doing this or that.
I am probably not " anchoring" by your definition.

[lawson-stone]

Generally it looks to me like Joe Pass is a floating picker when he plays with the pick. When he plays finger style, he doesn't anchor, but like a classical player, his hand is un-anchored.

[Robertkoa]

If you guys want to look at a " Floating Wrist" player to emulate - this Guy here would maybe be better to emulate.

Also as I said above the difference between "floating" and "lightly resting" is
sometimes not that big.

I think this Guy can have a really good Career in Jazz- lol.
Nowadays we literally play twice as fast but aI am talking Vibe and Content..
Also I prefer a slightly more aggressive "swing".
Pat Martino - episode 30:

Notice how he "turns" or slightly rotates his wrist to "dig in" and accent certain notes...

To my ears his " swing" is a hair more relaxed than Benson but he is definitely what I call a "hard swinger" as opposed to the "bouncier" softer Swing that seems later in the Beat to me.

I much prefer the "Hard Swingers".

Martino must have some big forearms there for a thin guy- his endurance is pretty amazing isn't it ?

But a great "Floating Wrist Tecnnique" where he can speed up/ slow down/ in the middle of a Phrase and accent Notes where he wants to.

If you want to "Float" look at this Guy.

He must have seriously freaked out a lot of Guitarists in the early 60s -playing this way....( so well ).

In the mid 1960s there was Martino and Benson...and I bet Jazz Guitarists everywhere ( with few exceptions) were scrambling to elevate their Chops.