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I could be mistaken but I've heard that Benson's thumb is double jointed, thus giving him the ability to bend it back farther. I've tried this technique and found it to restrictive for my tastes, especially since I like to alternate lines/hybird picked voicings.
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07-12-2011 07:40 PM
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The Benson "double-jointed thumb" thing is just a distraction, and not at all necessary to "Benson pick".
Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
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Well when I tried to learn the technique I ended up tweaking my wrist. If I had a more flexible thumb I wouldn't have had to bend my wrist to the point where I looked like a cripple. I personally prefer the Kreisberg method of picking: Originally Posted by Spirit59
I also can control the tone with the pick more easily because my wrist isn't constantly locked into the "Benson" position.
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just finished a transcription of GB playing "stella by starlight". he does it in G and kinda sorta up. i would post it up now, but my gfriend is sleeping and probably wouldnt be too keen on me busting the scanner out right now. especially after playing the same licks for a straight week..."why dont you play a whole song???!!!"
fair warning, overall the record its on is kind of crappy (shocker to all the GB fans out here?). but this one had such great lines i couldnt resist. i'll post it somewhere on here tomorrow.
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its up under "The Players" forum. enjoy...
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I also think Kreisberg has the best way of using the right hand! Originally Posted by GreyJazz90
This is my first post here on the "improvisation" section. One thing that I never quite understood about some guitar players is that they seem to rely on their right hand to get a "swing feel" - this usually takes you to a very syncopated swing feel IMO. Swing is indeed something rhythmic (turning two eight notes into three triplets with the first two tied) but also comes a lot from articulation. Bebop players attack the upbeat and slur the downbeat and I have been working on this a lot on guitar (hard to do when string changes) and this for me is the way to get a really good swing feel.
Has anyone else tried this instead of focusing on the right hand? This is very clear on the bebop tunes on "Intuit" by Kurt Rosenwinkel.
PS - I prefer alternate vs economy and free right hand vs anchored (there's a video on youtube where Kurt says he even alternates on arpeggios, its great)
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Thanks for posting the link to those pictures--they are worth more than all the descriptive words written about this technique. Originally Posted by jzucker
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Are you sure about that? Benson, Rogers, Martino, Diorio, Gambale and most of all Sylvain Luc all have/had brilliant right hand technique. Sylvain and Gambale can run circles around Kreisberg in terms of chops. Not that that means anything but you did say "best"! Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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Interesting thread.
I've always picked Benson style. Not on purpose, but because I never had a teacher to guide me to the "correct" side of the index finger grip. The Benson just seemed the most natural thing to do.
And when I learned I was "wrong" in my grip I went though many months to try to correct myself. I did, but I was never really comfortable. I could never get the feel I had with Benson. So I went back.
I can still do standard grip, but I seldom do. The difference between the two I note (for me) is speed and groove.
With the standard grip I can achieve pretty decent speed, but not with great soul (soul as I feel it). With my natural grip (Benson style) I can achieve great soul, but great speed is elusive.
I'll take the soul. Speed is overrated. JMO
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What I meant is that his way of picking is the most natural for me! You are right when you mentioned all those guys chops (although Kresiberg seems to be practicing that also, his playing on his latest record is the fastest I ever heard from him!) Originally Posted by jzucker
Are you sure about that? Benson, Rogers, Martino, Diorio, Gambale and most of all Sylvain Luc all have/had brilliant right hand technique. Sylvain and Gambale can run circles around Kreisberg in terms of chops. Not that that means anything but you did say "best"!
Bump for "bebop articulations", anyone uses them or you just use your right hand to give you a swing feel?
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i think it's a combination of left and right hands !
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I've kept working on this since I last posted here, and I was surprised that I made more progress with it once I started holding the pick a little less stiffly. The steep angle of pick attack certainly helps here, and I'm starting to rediscover the dexterity I had with the "anchored pinky" approach. Those pictures by jzucker were very revealing, BTW. I'm gonna record something soon and stick it on YouTube, see how it comes out.
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True! The question is which hand dictates the rules. If you follow my approach the right hand must follow the left hand in order to get the attacks and the slurs on the right place... Originally Posted by jzucker
i think it's a combination of left and right hands !
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I always dig picking discussions... a few observations. I dig JK's playing, especially with Joe Lock. His picking style almost remind me of flat picking. That's not a knock, flat pickers kick ass. The good things I see and hear are very smooth lines, very consistent level of attack, great for medium tempos and non percussive playing. When the tempo gets fast, the articulations tend to get lost. Some of the bad things... not very powerful, playing lines with large range tend to fall apart, at least when not worked out... almost anyone can practice any technique and get a rehearsed play out. How your non rehearsed playing comes off is a better method of checking how technique actually works... at least for jazz players. The other fairly major problem is the very percussive, rhythmic style of playing...
A small note about playing swing...Swing is a feel, not a technique. I can very easily play with a very heavy swing with attacks on the down beat and slur the up beats. There are methods of teaching swing with different techniques.
In the end ... obviously there are a few pick techniques that work just fine. I think you need to pick the methods that works for you both physically as well as aesthetically and get to that skill level where you don't need to think about it... there are to many other things to get together. Reg
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Its true you can have several ways of swinging BUT if you check the bebop players when they play a long series of eight notes they attack the up and slur the down - that's the basic of swing articulations. I have talked with several pro sax players here in Lisbon and they all told me that's how they articulate bebop lines - I also think Bert Ligon talks about it on "Connecting chords with linear harmony" Originally Posted by Reg
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There's way more to it than that Jorge. You can't simplify it that much. The swing isn't exactly a triplet and it's varies according to tempo. I think you're trying to make it a science and it's an art! Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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Not that it really matters... but I'm also a pro and have covered bebop and all kinds of swing gigs since the 70's, I read and play bebop heads with pro sax player every week. I'll be doing it tonight. It really comes down to the phrase and how you want to articulate... Swing is a feel not an articulation pattern. If you like we can post some samples of different swinging bebop lines with different articulations. Like I was saying there are several methods of articulations that help teach non jazz players to learn to feel swing, your example is the standard. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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I worked up my Benson-style picking for two months (while this thread has been going on). After a while, it felt pretty natural and I liked the tone I was getting on single-note lines. Chords played with a downstroke were also fine, but I couldn't get power and clarity picking upstroke chords.
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For me, the main key there is working on having a completely limp wrist while doing the upstrokes, and relying on elbow motion, like a funk player. Originally Posted by cmajor9
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if the template was the human voice, why were instruments invented? Just stick to singing. The reason instruments were invented was to overcome the restrictions of the human voice in terms of volume, articulation, speed, etc. Besides, I thought you were an internet nobody?
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I was so intrigued by this post a while back that I almost decided to take that leap to Benson picking. But...it almost seemed like a 'leap of faith' since it just didn't feel natural from the very outset. I was scared to spend hours of valuable time on a technique that I might later decide no longer to pursue. I wish I had someone show me in person, to guarantee that I am doing to technique properly. Did others experience this hesitation? I just know that my picking technique is the weakest part of my skill set, and I want to do something about it... Originally Posted by cmajor9
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I personally would love to see some examples from some of you that have some of this down if you get the time.
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That's a really good example, monk. Nothing better than seeing the original at it to get an idea.
I generally play with the curled under wrist and hand that is typical of Benson.
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HA. come on. we're ALL just internet nobodies...
except for me, of course. i have my "assistant" do all my time wasting forum babble for me.
personally i favor the GB school of articulation, though i dont sound like it myself. not sure i hear much "hornlike" phrasing from metheny though. he did alot of hammer on passages in the old days, like "BSL" era...three note per string hammer ons for fast scalar passages. but it seems like recently he is picking almost everything. sounds good to me.
ive always thought that trying the "tongue on the beat, slur on the ands" approach just doesnt translate to guitar no matter how diligent you might be.
might work if all we ever did was start phrases on the beat, but if you start on a "and", what then? i dont hear many horn players complaining about how jim hall phrases...
i still say everyone would learn alot more just trying to learn 5 GB solo if thats the sound they want. 90% has to do with his rhythm, maybe 5% how he is picking.
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This is on the edge of embarrassing ... simply noodling over I VI II II changes at medium tempo, 200, not really bebop tempo... nothing worked out etc... but you can and hear my feel and see my picking.
If I played a little etc... I would get warmed but... my feel. But as I said rough is better for checking out... I'll try and post again... Reg
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