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Just wanted to comment on the playing aspect of your vid. My favorite part wich stood out alot(i know your not looking for comments) was 1:47-1:50. Those phrases were nice man. How the second one answered the first every so slighty.
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09-17-2011 12:54 AM
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I agree with you! Just by listening several good jazz records you can notice how even the masters have so many different ways of swinging. My only point is that people usually talk a lot about the rhythmic aspect of the swing (in the guitar the right hand) and not so much about the articulations (the left hand) - I am talking about swinging a series of eight notes. In my case learning "bebop articulations" helped my swing a lot even when I play stacatto.
Originally Posted by jzucker
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I get your point and I am not saying there's only one way of doing it - and I am talking about articulations on consecutive eight notes. Bebop head usually have more intricate rhythms and pauses, this technique would be more useful on solos. When I transcribed Parker he always used "bebop articulations" on series of eight notes (Clifford Brown for example plays stacatto much more and obviously still swings his ass off). Originally Posted by Reg
I think guitar players tend to use legatto on a very random way and to rely to much on their right hand to provide a swing feel. This technique has helped me a lot and I was wondering if it has helped other people
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Hi Richard, Originally Posted by Richb
It is indeed a very important topic that should be discussed a lot more! You do mention some interesting examples of guitar players - IMO Benson approach is very unique and hard to imitate. Martino has also a very unique approach on the guitar - always stacatto with a very strong and even attack. He makes it work but its not my favorite approach.
There is one guy that never gets mentioned but to me he is the one that really got how to play always stacatto and have a great swing feel - Mike Stern - just listen to him playing standards. He was also one of the firts to "hide" the pick sound from the attack - Rosenwinkel and Monder also use this approach these days. I don't like all aspects of his playing but that one is phenomenal. Jim Hall is also a great example of being able to attack all notes and get a swing feel - there are some videos with Art Farmer where you can check that out.
Metheny has an incredible legatto technique and that's how he manages his right hand basically - the left one does all the work. The only guy compared to him on that is Rosenwinkel. I am just guessing here but I think Metheny started his picking technique due to Wes Montgomery and then to be able to play faster developed his left hand. Scofield also does that very well (I think they both used only down strokes when they emerged, not so sure now)
Its impossible on guitar to always attack the up and slur the down, but good fretboard knowledge will help you to do that on real time. Its also hard to when you have wide intervals or several direction changes on the same phrase. I don't use it always but it helped me so much to hear good swinging lines that also improved my stacatto swing (also helped me a lot on always knowing where are the upbeats / downbeats and trying to always be aligned with the chords)
I would say a good exercise is studying bebop scales using this technique. I would also suggest Hal Galper approach to bebop scales: 5ch6 on major 7 chords and b7ch1 on minor 7 chords - to keep things simple.
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Exactly, if you sing a swing line with consecutive eight notes your intuition will probably lead you to attacking the up and slurring the down. Originally Posted by Richb
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Excellent discussion I would say! Originally Posted by Richb
Wow I really disagree on the Monder comment. I would put fluid where you put stiff. Have you heard "The Vastness of Space" by Reid Anderson? Monder destroys on that album.
No doubt about Metheny - Wes and Hall are his big influences! He even bought Wes guitar from Benson I think. I would say Wes was his main influence when he started playing and Hall was a bigger influence later. Hall for me is the guitar player I cant put in a box, modern or traditional. Metheny said once on a interview he completely changed the role of the guitar in his duo records with Bill Evans and I agree. I would say Metheny legatto feel came not so much from Wes or Hall but I just think he needed to play faster and it was easier to develop his left hand for him. But I would really like to hear him talk about that...
You got my whole point on your Scofield comment (and I agree his attack is random sometimes). The thing that bugs me when people talk about legatto technique on swing feel is that it seems to be a random thing that you use when you want. Thats why I started this whole "bebop articulations" thing - if you listen to Parker its not random. And if you practice it you will see the difference between random legatto and "bebop articulations"
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Never heard about him - there are too many great players in the world and its hard to know them all! Originally Posted by Richb
Its him right? Here there are some parts where he clearly uses "bebop articulations" and its easy to get the effect I am talking about (btw he is clearly influenced by Scofield a lot - his solo reminded me Sco solo on the very same tune on a duo version with McCoy Tuner).
I didn't know about that Ford album, I have always admired him as a bluesman and I generally have a (stupid) prejudice against blues players playing jazz. Will listen in the next few days.
This is a great example of using those articulations
PS - About Stern using chorus to "hide" the pick its partially true - his duo version of "My Romance" doesn't have chorus and he is still able to do that (he has a light attack and uses 11s I think. Maybe he also uses a light pick). Of course if you listen to Kurt its magnificent - he "hides" the pick using 13s and a heavy pick.
Intiut Ford Stern
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We should pick a head or tune and work on implying swing 8ths , even simply soloing over... not rehearsed... just play. Then try and rehears your playing into becoming what your talking about... We might become even more clear on what's actually possible... any of the tunes posted are cool or a different one...Reg
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I will check that Ford album, I admit is pure snobbery - something that affects jazzers a lot (including myself) Originally Posted by Richb
I don't think "Intuit" is Kurt`s weakest recording. I think is by far his worst recorded sound (by his standards of course), he just plugged a 335 to a Twin Reverb, but even he said it was a very relaxed record and I really like his lines (and its the best example I know of a guitar player using "bebop articulations"). Of course "East Coast Love Affair" is pure genius - I love that guy playing standards - have a series of bootlegs from his post "Reflections" tour just playing trio standards that are phenomenal.
Yeah Adam Rogers is another great example. His version of "Dexterity" is so killing.... He also has an incredible dark but not muddy sound.
What do you mean by Metheny "lesson"? Pat is the greatest, a lot of young players know just care for Kurt and even say they don't like Pat Metheny, which is so unfair. He was / is so important...
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Spam alert
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I was going through some of this thread today in between watching some Sheryl Bailey and decided to start experimenting with "Benson" picking.
I find that both my down and up strokes have more "pop" and volume when I pick, but it feels like the pick is catching on the string in a way. The pick doesn't push as smoothly through the strings in comparison to my regular picking technique, but my notes seem to come out stronger.
Does it sound like I am going about this wrong?
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After messing around with my pick angle for a couple of hours, I think I may have it.
My pick doesn't get caught up anymore, my pick attack seems stronger, I am playing more cleanly, and I am slightly faster. I don't know why, but string crossing is so much easier now. Whether I start with a down or up stroke, switching strings is much smoother. The only thing I really need to work on is striking chords. I do hybrid pick, but I don't see it as much of a hassle to switch back to my original picking technique to make it work.
I tried to mimic some photos and what not, but I had to augment what was working for others to work for me. I think I am doing it right; it certainly feels nice.
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Agree, oh yeah. And Robben's feel for comping and his execution of it are just superb, imo. Definitely a jazz thing in him. Originally Posted by Richb
Right now, I'm purposely going back, starting over almost, changing from wrist picking to picking from the elbow. I love how it's feeling, how it's sounding, I love the greater potential for speed, for control of dynamics -- everything! Finally, it seems, I'm going to learn to play with a pick. Originally Posted by Richb
I think, Rich, that if a player sounds (feels?) stiff, it's because he hears the music that way. We play it the way we hear it, no?
Another thing about playing from the elbow: although some written methods tell you not to use the wrist, I think this approach *requires* at least a bit of wrist. One certainly should not lock the wrist or play with a tense arm. There should be ZERO - or as close as possible to zero - tension. The arm/elbow swings such that the pick travels in a straight line from low E to high E and back. But, IMO, as the arm takes the pick across the strings, it is a good part wrist that plays down-up strokes on single strings. There should be no stopping to "shift gears" - from elbow to wrist. It must be a second-nature process acquired through slow practice (and visualization.) This way of playing felt awkward and "wrong" to me at first. But it seemed that everywhere I looked in this room where I practice, I'd see the old copy of Ivor Mariant's book Perfect Pick Technique. And I'd recall Mariant's reasoning for playing from the elbow, and I'd spend some time trying to do it.
Eventually, it clicked. For me, this *is* the way to play. For me. And it is not "stiff" at all. And the potential for speed is vast. I'm excited about it -- if I weren't battling such crappy depression (wheee!) I'd probably practice 12 hours a day.
The thing is, I don't believe anybody CAN play everything entirely from the elbow. The wrist, hand, and fingers have to play at least a small part, and this is what makes it work. I'll post something soon, I hope - I'll show you what I'm probably failing to explain.
kj
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Originally Posted by M-ster
I still tinker with Benson picking because it sounds great and I think it sounds best with a heavy pick. It's still awkward for me, but when it works it is fantastic. The worst part is getting caught in between strings and getting that horrible pluck sound. Can't stand that.
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I spent some more time playing with the Benson grip today and I have to say, I went back to my normal way of picking and it feels like I am getting caught on my strings more. Not to mention that my notes don't come out as smooth. I don't have a problem muting with the Benson grip, but I may be using some sort of modified grip. Either way, this way is much more comfortable for me to play with.
Thanks for all the information you guys posted.Last edited by Silence; 10-13-2011 at 03:41 PM.
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Yeh Dan Wilson is smokin...from my home state! I really admire that kind of tone/feel (the Benson, Henry johnson). In the mid 90s I studied with Barry Greene and adopted his picking technique. He is a really mature player that has incredible chops. At 5:00 on the following you can see the RH..and 5.45
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Not my cup o' tea. Too percussive for my tastes. Now, I like what his left hand does...
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My favorite guitar-related topic! Yes, Jack, I switched a few years ago after I came across Tuck's thesis-level description of it. As you noted, Tuck's description is overly technical and without pictures is not very useful. I happened to see Benson live shortly after and got to see a bit of it then, and then sampled some of his videos on Youtube (the one of Affirmation from the 70s) to apply it. I finally took a Skype lesson with Sheryl Bailey to confirm that I was doing it right.
Bottom line is that my picking improved dramatically after the initial period of adjustment. I went through many types of picks trying to determine which had the best feel and sound, finally setting on Dunlop Gators (.96mm). Along the way I came to several of the conclusions that Srinjay described, but the most important thing to me is the amount of "inward" wrist bend. If I get lazy and my wrist becomes straight, I loose the "good" pick angle, which in turns moves my strokes back toward translation. My thumb doesn't bend back like Bensons' does, so I think I have much less leeway in the wrist angle.
One last thing: it's much easier to pick Benson style on my 335 than on my Tele (a Fat Tele with the splittable humbucker in front--great guitar!). The Gibson (an early '70 with the trapeze) makes it feel much more natural than on the Tele, but if I get the correct wrist angle on the Tele, it really makes quite a difference. I suspect this is true for most semi-hollows and archtops, but I could be wrong.
Joe
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Thoughts about plectrums and the Benson angle.
I've really been experimenting with picks over the last 3 months.
Remember this: because your pick is now at an angle probably opposite to your old style you no longer need a right hand bevel on the plectrum. You need a left hand bevel.
It made quite a difference for me.
So if you lay you pick flat down in front of you there is usually a bevel on the right side. That's the way most plectrums are made.
Red Bear will do a left on all their models and Blue Chip will do a left hand bevel on some of their models.
I know it sounds very nerdy and let's face it, Benson probably doesn't care about bevels.
But for me it really made a nice difference.
Out of all the ones I tried including different points and thicknesses my fave at the moment is a Blue Chip STP60 with a left bevel.
Minimum pick noise and it just glides over the strings.
Of course everyone else will find their own preference.
That was a very expensive exercise!
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I tried two Blue Chip picks and settled on the LG Jazz 35. I like the feel and it really does glide, but for some reason I keep going back to the Dunlops. Also tried PickBoy picks with the dimples, and like them too. The BC pics are expensive ($35 a pop!) but it was instructive to see how picks really do matter.
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I agree. I think the angled pickguard on many semis and archtops helps a lot. Creates a nice platform for you to anchor the little finger. Originally Posted by bbjonz
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Through the years, I've experienced numerous periods where I felt the need to re-evaluate and refine my picking technique. Occasionally, this was the result of just wanting to try something different such Wes Montgomery's thumb approach.
Something that I've noticed with the Montgomery approach, gypsy jazz picking and Benson picking is that all three require a slight bend in the wrist that seems to greatly facilitate the relaxing of the forearm muscles thus reducing unwanted tension and fatigue while allowing for increased speed and articulation of the notes.
If any of the members here are engaged in medical research they might want to engage in some experimentation with electromyography to prove if this is truly a valid indentifiable benefit. Maybe you could even get Benson or Sheryl Bailey or others to participate as a means of advancing our knowledge of the physiology of playing guitar.
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My picking and playing in general have improved beyond what I thought myself capable of.
Only due to the new technique. I do bend my wrist quite a bit. Things that were once difficult are now achievable and consistent.
There is definitely something to what you say Monk. It's the relaxation thing. It's effortless.
It's also the angle of the pick and the fact that there is no change in angle from the first to the sixth string.
I know it's slightly controversial but I have to repeat that I think the "standard" picking technique is not quite right.
I hope that in the future there will be teachers who instruct their students in both methods.
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Check five great guitar players - and you will probably find five different ways of picking. Use something that fits you... Although "effortless" is indeed essential to good right hand technique.
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Classical guitarists seldom experience the repetitive stress injuries that plectrum guitarists do.
The reason is that over the past 230 years classical guitarists have solved the mechanical problems inhererent with holding, fingering and plucking the guitar.
Plectrum guitar playing as a mainstream style is barely ninety years old. Given the relative youth of pickstyle playing and the different musical styles (rock, blues, jazz, bluegrass, country, et al) in which it is employed and given the large number of self taught players, it's no surprise that there is no uniform standard for picking.
But the idea that there is a correct, ergonomic method to pick is not only sound but logical. It may not be Benson picking or gypsy picking but what ever it is will facilitate tension-free picking with no detrimental stress placed on the joints, muscles and tendons.
A self taught beginner doesn't have the knowledge to correctly interpret and manipulate the massive amount of physiological information that bombards the brain when learning to manipulate all the different elements that go into coordinating the right and left hands to repeatedly produce quality sound from the guitar. This is why professional and Olympic athletes of all types have coaches even when they've reached world class status.
The idea that "it's all good" is a fallacy. There is an ergonomically correct way to pick a guitar; we just haven't identified it yet.Last edited by monk; 11-16-2011 at 01:32 AM.
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