Right-Hand Development for Jazz Guitar

[Flyin' Brian]

i agree that there are certain assertions the book makes that are questionable but regarding the thumb knuckle, rodney jones doesn't seem to have a problem with it:
By the way, note the benson angle and rest strokes...

It's the HEADSTOCK Jack! The HEADSTOCK!

[jzucker]

It's the HEADSTOCK Jack! The HEADSTOCK!

wrong forum!

[MarkRhodes]

i agree that there are certain assertions the book makes that are questionable.....

Ignore them! Just do the exercises. Pick them however you are comfortable gripping and moving the pick. Just do the exercises. They make a difference, esp the string-skipping ones.

[schmoe]

That's the rub. I found it at the library. I was allowed to copy 10% of the pages (I totally respect intellectual property rights). The next few pages I copied by hand. I'm due for some more now.

If nothing else, the *focus* on my right hand has been a benefit and has helped my playing all-around. The more aware I am of such details, the more aware I am of the sound.

I took some classical lessons a half a lifetime ago. I found that, once I got the basics of the right hand down, I played (at that baby level) with authority and it was fun. When my right hand is in control (speaking as someone who plays righty), I feel far more confident in my playing.

However, since my electric playing isn't fingerstyle, it isn't often that I feel so in control of my technique, and that takes a lot of fun out of it. You simply cannot play with authority if somewhere in your consciousness you are aware of a very high probability of missing the string.

Well since I just got a message from the board that it "missed" me, I figured I'd come back and see if this was the place where I found the discussion about Bill Frisell that I wanted to chime in on...it's not.

Instead, I found myself opinining about the right hand studies I was doing a while ago. Since I've found that technique creeping back into my right hand action lately, I figured I might as well offer an update. Well, I guess I just did.

That is, I practiced the Renard Hoover technique hard for a while, but I never felt I was getting it. But then, lo, a year or so later, I was trying to learn a little Steve Lukather ouburst of shredage, and decided to see what it felt like to lift my right hand completely off the axe, something I was never really comfortable doing before. But this time it was quite natural, and I found I could invoke what little I understood of the Hoover technique at will.

I also read Tuck Andress' exhaustive commentary on the subject, and decided to give the method he attributes to George Benson a try, and was able to make that work, too, although I'm not entirely sold on it.

So what's cool is that if you practice this stuff, you can actually do it eventually. Way cool.

But I'm still trying to find that happy spot, that zone, where I KNOW all is sweetness and light and I can let 'er rip.

Rock on!

~schmoe.

[MatsP]

I don't think Charlie Christian angled his pick. (I've been listening to him a lot lately and learning some of his solos.) Herb Ellis may have--he could get awfully speedy at times, much faster than Charlie--though I haven't been able to tell from the videos I've seen. Like a lot of guitar players, his pick probably changed during a performance.

I grant that the angle is good for speed, but I don't grant that a pick held the regular way will get hung up. It *can* of course, but need not. (If you hold the pick at an angle but show too much, it can slide along the string before striking the note, which isn't good though it's not a complaint against the angled approach because you're not supposed to let *that* much pick show.)


At the end of the day, I think I'll stick with an angled attack, though for some comping (esp swing comping) I like the greater "thonk" that comes from holding the pick perpendicular to the strings. That attack is also good for riffs.

Herb Ellis did angle his pick. He even mentioned it in an instructional video, don't remember the title of it. Furthermore, both he and Barney Kessel had a very strong attack.

[MatsP]

Herb Ellis did angle his pick. He even mentioned it in an instructional video, don't remember the title of it. Furthermore, both he and Barney Kessel had a very strong attack.

I should add that Herb used a pick with a pointy tip (not quite as pointy as Jazz III, I think).

[MarkRhodes]

Herb Ellis did angle his pick. He even mentioned it in an instructional video, don't remember the title of it. Furthermore, both he and Barney Kessel had a very strong attack.

Yes, Herb definitely angled his pick. I've seen that video since making the post. Definite angle, and he didn't pick every note either. (Said he couldn't play nearly as fast if he did.) I love Herb's playing.

Here's Herb with Duke Robillard playing "Stuffy". (Interesting to compare with Herb's duet with Joe Pass on the same tune.)

~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-jyQEmPjEw

[MatsP]

Yes, Herb definitely angled his pick. I've seen that video since making the post. Definite angle, and he didn't pick every note either. (Said he couldn't play nearly as fast if he did.) I love Herb's playing.

Here's Herb with Duke Robillard playing "Stuffy". (Interesting to compare with Herb's duet with Joe Pass on the same tune.)

~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-jyQEmPjEw

Yeah, I love his playing too. Well, with an angled pick and that firm "power grip" that he had, he should have been able to use straight alternate picking in my book. But the main reason he didn't pick every note (a la Andreas Öberg) he said was that it sounded too mechanical, sort of. And he has a point there.

[MatsP]

Yeah, I love his playing too. Well, with an angled pick and that firm "power grip" that he had, he should have been able to use straight alternate picking in my book. But the main reason he didn't pick every note (a la Andreas Öberg) he said was that it sounded too mechanical, sort of. And he has a point there.

What I meant was that Andreas Öberg tends to pick every note....

[MarkRhodes]

Yeah, I love his playing too. Well, with an angled pick and that firm "power grip" that he had, he should have been able to use straight alternate picking in my book. But the main reason he didn't pick every note (a la Andreas Öberg) he said was that it sounded too mechanical, sort of. And he has a point there.

I tried emulating his grip but it just didn't work for me. (I go more the Benson route.)
Yes, picking every note can sound mechanical ---though it doesn't sound that way when playing a melody!---but it can also allow you to play faster. Lots of horn-like trills sound better if not picked.

[MarkRhodes]

I should add that Herb used a pick with a pointy tip (not quite as pointy as Jazz III, I think).

What kind of pick did Herb use? I've never seen it mentioned. I'm happy with what I'm using but I'm curious about what Herb used.

[MatsP]

I tried emulating his grip but it just didn't work for me. (I go more the Benson route.)
Yes, picking every note can sound mechanical ---though it doesn't sound that way when playing a melody!---but it can also allow you to play faster. Lots of horn-like trills sound better if not picked.

I agree. Well, I've actually more or less adapted his type of grip lately. It gives me the power to get a nice distinct attack with an angled pick without using too much force. Works pretty well for me at least. I do use a pick with a rounded tip though (Dunlop Delrin 500 1.14 mm), so I suppose I don't angle it quite as much as he did).

[MatsP]

I agree. Well, I've actually more or less adapted his type of grip lately. It gives me the power to get a nice distinct attack with an angled pick without using too much force. Works pretty well for me at least. I do use a pick with a rounded tip though (Dunlop Delrin 500 1.14 mm), so I suppose I don't angle it quite as much as he did).

I have struggled with my right hand for a long time. Before changing to "Herb's grip" lately, I had a much lighter approach with a more open fist, and I didn't angle the pick very much. i have noticed that you need a certain "torque" to get a decent attack when you angle the pick, and that just didn't happen with the grip that I had before without pinching the thumb and index finger leading to stiffness in other parts of the hand, so I didn't use that much angle either. A downside of this is of course the sound gets "thinner" and more brittle, some say "cleaner" but that's not really the ideal sound for jazz in my book. Perhaps in surf music. To each his own. Anyway, I have talked to Andreas Öberg, and he has a VERY loose grip on the pick, and he doesn't use any angle to talk about either. It seems to work for him, though. There are of course endless variations in between.

[goldenwave77]

I think the original Nick Lucas pamphlets back in the 20's advocated "no angle" picking....not saying it is good or bad, just that it is not a new idea.

Let me throw out another notion, based on sports movement. In sports, fluidity requires the ability to almost change motions without being "off kilter"...look at a really good broken field runner in football---the essence of a great "juke" is getting the tackler to commit in one direction, then to cut back the other way.

In basketball, great shooters, e.g. Ray Allen, would run their patterns to get open, and receive the ball off the pass...with knees bent and be able to go up quickly in one motion. Watch junior HS or HS basketball players, 98% of them will receive a pass, then sink down to "compress" and then jump up....slow, wasted motion that allows the defender to catch up and get onto them.

So, what I'm saying is ....whatever picking motion or technique we use, maybe it would behoove us to think about the "next motion" to allow us to finish a phrase...or flow into another one...or play against the beat...Wayne Gretzky used to say hockey to him was all angles...and the ability to think 3 passes ahead...and he was probably the best ever...I think great virtuoso instrumentalists have this same sense of "seeing ahead" , so to speak.

Exactly how to do that...I guess is up to the individual, and we know there is more than one way to skin a cat..

[MatsP]

I think the original Nick Lucas pamphlets back in the 20's advocated "no angle" picking....not saying it is good or bad, just that it is not a new idea.

Let me throw out another notion, based on sports movement. In sports, fluidity requires the ability to almost change motions without being "off kilter"...look at a really good broken field runner in football---the essence of a great "juke" is getting the tackler to commit in one direction, then to cut back the other way.

In basketball, great shooters, e.g. Ray Allen, would run their patterns to get open, and receive the ball off the pass...with knees bent and be able to go up quickly in one motion. Watch junior HS or HS basketball players, 98% of them will receive a pass, then sink down to "compress" and then jump up....slow, wasted motion that allows the defender to catch up and get onto them.

So, what I'm saying is ....whatever picking motion or technique we use, maybe it would behoove us to think about the "next motion" to allow us to finish a phrase...or flow into another one...or play against the beat...Wayne Gretzky used to say hockey to him was all angles...and the ability to think 3 passes ahead...and he was probably the best ever...I think great virtuoso instrumentalists have this same sense of "seeing ahead" , so to speak.

Exactly how to do that...I guess is up to the individual, and we know there is more than one way to skin a cat..

That's one philosophical view of it Well, "no angle" picking is nothing new, of course. But you will get a "fatter" sound if you angle the pick somewhat. I have detested using angled picking before, since I couldn't get a decent attack with that approach. I have realized that I need to curl my index finger all the way back (not so much that I get pain, of course), then place the pick more or less on the first joint of the index finger, and the thumb on top, in order to get the torque needed for a decent attack with an angled pick. But that's me. Other people may succeed with other grips. Regardless of that, in jazz, I think it's important to have a clearly defined attack.

[goldenwave77]

[QUOTE=MatsP;561847] Regardless of that, in jazz, I think it's important to have a clearly defined attack.[/QUOTE]


+1 on this. When I took some lessons with Peter Mazza, maybe 15 yrs. ago., we talked about bebop one time, and he was of the opinion that the biggest departure in bebop was in rhythmic phrasing. He noted that the other stuff, had been used in classical stuff in one form or another (there are 12 tones, only, after all). Peter is a player with very advanced harmonic understanding, as anyone who's ever looked at his chord melody stuff can tell you.

In any event, playing "Oleo" or "Billie's Bounce" well, for e.g., it seems to me, is first and foremost getting the attack, the groove right. The ability to do this more easily with a pick, seems to me the chief argument for using one. (Though Joe P. later on started playing more finger style, and does it well, though maybe he does lose a little rhythmic accent.)

[Irez87]

You can get a loud attack with the pick without pinching the pick as hard as possible. The guy I study with says to let the thumb fall into place and to use the weight of the thumb. Too much tension could mess up your forearm in the long run, we wanna play as long as Bucky is doing so, am I right?

[MatsP]

You can get a loud attack with the pick without pinching the pick as hard as possible. The guy I study with says to let the thumb fall into place and to use the weight of the thumb. Too much tension could mess up your forearm in the long run, we wanna play as long as Bucky is doing so, am I right?

Well, as I said before, with my current grip (Herb Ellis style), I don't have to pinch the pick a lot, and I still get a good attack when angling the pick. It was when I used a more loose grip that I lacked the weight to really produce a good attack. Others may succeed in doing so, but not me.

[MatsP]

[QUOTE=goldenwave77;561899]

Regardless of that, in jazz, I think it's important to have a clearly defined attack.[/QUOTE]


+1 on this. When I took some lessons with Peter Mazza, maybe 15 yrs. ago., we talked about bebop one time, and he was of the opinion that the biggest departure in bebop was in rhythmic phrasing. He noted that the other stuff, had been used in classical stuff in one form or another (there are 12 tones, only, after all). Peter is a player with very advanced harmonic understanding, as anyone who's ever looked at his chord melody stuff can tell you.

In any event, playing "Oleo" or "Billie's Bounce" well, for e.g., it seems to me, is first and foremost getting the attack, the groove right. The ability to do this more easily with a pick, seems to me the chief argument for using one. (Though Joe P. later on started playing more finger style, and does it well, though maybe he does lose a little rhythmic accent.)

Yes. Joe was good with the pick as well, but I wrote in another thread that I was puzzled by his playing a Fender Jaguar in a video, that he could use a completely floating hand (at least judging by the looks of it), and yet manage to avoid the ringing of lower strings without any kind of dampening.

[Irez87]

For clear and clean, I think of the classical rest stroke for a reference. Full toned, clean, and defined. As balanced as possible with the other notes, and as full as possible, even on the high e. Playing, I try to think of the inherit dynamics of the phrase. But in practice, nice and even.

[MatsP]

For clear and clean, I think of the classical rest stroke for a reference. Full toned, clean, and defined. As balanced as possible with the other notes, and as full as possible, even on the high e. Playing, I try to think of the inherit dynamics of the phrase. But in practice, nice and even.

Hey, I just tried using more of the weight of the thumb. It works really well. And yes, the rest stroke is close to ideal for that full, yet snappy tone.

[MatsP]

Hey, I just tried using more of the weight of the thumb. It works really well. And yes, the rest stroke is close to ideal for that full, yet snappy tone.

It's just a matter of not angling the pick TOO much (and now i mean on the other axis), since then upstrokes on a lower string may become problematic.

[Irez87]

Sorry Matt, wasn't saying you were. But a lot of guitarists think that you have to squeeze harder to play louder. That only messes them up in the long run. I can't imagine life without playing guitar, so I wanna avoid those types of injuries.

[MatsP]

Sorry Matt, wasn't saying you were. But a lot of guitarists think that you have to squeeze harder to play louder. That only messes them up in the long run. I can't imagine life without playing guitar, so I wanna avoid those types of injuries.

No i didn't mean you were saying that I was I completely agree that squeezing hard is no recipe for efficient playing, and it will cause fatigue in the long run.

[MatsP]

Hey, I just tried using more of the weight of the thumb. It works really well. And yes, the rest stroke is close to ideal for that full, yet snappy tone.

Speaking of rest(ish) strokes, using the weight of the thumb works very well. But on the upstrokes, I find it beneficial to have the pick somewhere on the first joint of the index finger for enough power.