Chops?

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Trying to play with speed. My old hands don’t feel so great like they used to, but I think they’re still obedient to the music being asked of them. I know there’s many an elderly gent in this forum. What’s the secret?

[deacon Mark]

Mark, your touch is very light and different that mine. My hands seem to work fine at 64 nothing stands out at least for pain. I do find that if I play a lot I get stronger but then need to back off as it gets mechanical. If fact sometimes taking a day or 2 off is not a bad thing many don't ascribe to that, but I do. Your lines are very different than most players I hear so not sure exactly what to make of it except you are you and not bad thing for sure! I use 13-53 roundwounds mostly what do you use?

I still have Big Mikes Unity guitar here to get back to him, it has flatwounds and I just cannot stand them frankly but that is what he wanted. On this guitar they are hard to play more resistance, and I have to work harder. The guitar to me sound way better with roundwounds. It simply is more work but actually the speed as such is about same.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Mark, your touch is very light and different that mine. My hands seem to work fine at 64 nothing stands out at least for pain. I do find that if I play a lot I get stronger but then need to back off as it gets mechanical. If fact sometimes taking a day or 2 off is not a bad thing many don't ascribe to that, but I do. Your lines are very different than most players I hear so not sure exactly what to make of it except you are you and not bad thing for sure! I use 13-53 roundwounds mostly what do you use?

I still have Big Mikes Unity guitar here to get back to him, it has flatwounds and I just cannot stand them frankly but that is what he wanted. On this guitar they are hard to play more resistance, and I have to work harder. The guitar to me sound way better with roundwounds. It simply is more work but actually the speed as such is about same.

Hi Mark, I’m 68 now and it seems a lot has changed since I was 64. Playing guitar actually feels good- it’s therapeutic, though I have to pause often to let the tingling feeling subside. It’s when I’m not playing that I notice my grip is weak and I can’t really make a fist. I’m always messaging them but there’s lots of joint pains, though nothings seems to be swollen. Hot water makes everything feel better, and my wife’s happy I always want to wash the dishes

anway, I play on 12’s roundwounds from Stringjoy.

[Mick-7]

Mark, ever tried using one of these? -- Hand Exercise Ball - Amazon.com

I've been taking a Glucosamine-Condroitin-MSM supplement for quite a while now, seems to make a difference. Essential Fatty Acids, a.k.a., fish oil, can help too.

So the usual advice.... diet and exercise.

[ccroft]

Mark K : your left had has always looked to me like the very best recipe for longevity, and I've commented on that before. I'm surprised and sorry to hear you're experiencing some degree of difficulty. You hide it well!

I'm almost 72. I spent the 70's chasing Johnny Mac and Al D. so I've put my share of wear and tear on the joints. I don't have any tips on holding back the decay (aging).

It doesn't look like it applies to you, but I have noticed this : my hands weren't giving me any trouble until a few years ago when I decided I wanted to play Joy Spring at the Clifford clip, complete with all the 'twiddles'. Especially when I decided on some fingerings that included a stretch at one end or the other of the twiddle. Tendonitis.

If I stick closer to the one finger per fret thing that you mostly do, I don't have the same trouble. Something about the stretch combined with the sideways pull made my tendons very unhappy. Thankfully my joints are free of arthritis, except for a little hint at thumb base.

I did notice that in your solo playing your left index spends quite a bit of time in a barr position to varying degrees. Really don't have any idea if that's good or bad. I do wonder if this might've started up over the last few years where you're playing a lot of solo guitar for longer periods? Holding down lower strings while playing lines above.

Of course, this would also coincide with some critical years ticking by, so not sure if it says anything or not. Decay is inevitable!

These exercises help me, but I think maybe you got something else going on.

Keep up with the dishes, if only for your wife's sake :)

[jazznylon]

Rasqueados with both hands on your lap or soft object like pillow. It frees up the fingers. Very useful (indirectly speaking) even for other instrumentalists where quick finger movement is needed such as pianists, violinists, etc.

[Mick-7]

Rasqueados with both hands on your lap or soft object like pillow. It frees up the fingers. Very useful (indirectly speaking) even for other instrumentalists where quick finger movement is needed such as pianists, violinists, etc.

Thank you, I had to look that up.... Rasgueados, Part 1

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Mark, ever tried using one of these? -- Hand Exercise Ball - Amazon.com

I've been taking a Glucosamine-Condroitin-MSM supplement for quite a while now, seems to make a difference. Essential Fatty Acids, a.k.a., fish oil, can help too.

So the usual advice.... diet and exercise.

yes, yes and yes

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Mark K : your left had has always looked to me like the very best recipe for longevity, and I've commented on that before. I'm surprised and sorry to hear you're experiencing some degree of difficulty. You hide it well!

I'm almost 72. I spent the 70's chasing Johnny Mac and Al D. so I've put my share of wear and tear on the joints. I don't have any tips on holding back the decay (aging).

It doesn't look like it applies to you, but I have noticed this : my hands weren't giving me any trouble until a few years ago when I decided I wanted to play Joy Spring at the Clifford clip, complete with all the 'twiddles'. Especially when I decided on some fingerings that included a stretch at one end or the other of the twiddle. Tendonitis.

If I stick closer to the one finger per fret thing that you mostly do, I don't have the same trouble. Something about the stretch combined with the sideways pull made my tendons very unhappy. Thankfully my joints are free of arthritis, except for a little hint at thumb base.

I did notice that in your solo playing your left index spends quite a bit of time in a barr position to varying degrees. Really don't have any idea if that's good or bad. I do wonder if this might've started up over the last few years where you're playing a lot of solo guitar for longer periods? Holding down lower strings while playing lines above.

Of course, this would also coincide with some critical years ticking by, so not sure if it says anything or not. Decay is inevitable!

These exercises help me, but I think maybe you got something else going on.

Keep up with the dishes, if only for your wife's sake

Stretching across more than 4 frets at a time shouldn’t ever be needed for single line work except when pivoting to a different position. You’ve probably noticed that while I keep mostly to the 1 finger 1 fret mantra, I’m constantly moving my hand up and down the fretboard in a flow of position changes.

[pilotony]

Very nicely done. Thanks for posting.

[pauln]

What’s the secret?

I drink coffee or tea each morning. I resist flexing, bending, pushing, or pulling my cold fingers until after the pot boils and the cup made. While the element is still hot after turning it off, I hold my hands together with the L/R fingers and thumbs opposed to each other and press very gently as I rotate my wrists back and forth.

A lot of people hop out of bed and within a minute or so work their fingers, listening to the confirming audible "snicks" as things pushed and pulled kind of snap back into normal alignment.

What I do is heat the hands briefly and apply very gentle forces that do NOT immediately produce "snicks"... after a few cycles of heating, things ease back into place. I feel them resolve but they aren't vigorous enough to make sound.

Whole thing only takes a minute; any heat source, even hot water, will provide the same thing. A main danger is stressing the hands with ordinary tasks before they are warmed up. Literately warming them up and gently encouraging out the kinks first thing in the morning holds to avoid issues all day.

I'll relate something else - little repetitive stress injuries due to a CHANGE. A while back my left index distal joint began to hurt for some particular neck positions. I suspected something in the way I used my finger in everyday things had changed and decided to find out the cause. Every time I used that finger I took note of whether this was a new thing that might be the problem.

The first day I found it. The float valve in one of my toilets was no longer floating, so procrastinating until I decided to fix it I had been pushing down the handle for about 10 seconds each flush - with my index finger. I changed to not doing it that way and in a few days it got better, but not completely.

I resumed the hunt for suspect finger loads and then found the rest of the problem. I had recently begun using a heavy ceramic mug my niece had made for me (painted picture of my guitar on it). It had a little handle like a tea cup that only had room for my index finger... I went back to my little cups with bigger handles and in a few more days all was well.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I drink coffee or tea each morning. I resist flexing, bending, pushing, or pulling my cold fingers until after the pot boils and the cup made. While the element is still hot after turning it off, I hold my hands together with the L/R fingers and thumbs opposed to each other and press very gently as I rotate my wrists back and forth.

A lot of people hop out of bed and within a minute or so work their fingers, listening to the confirming audible "snicks" as things pushed and pulled kind of snap back into normal alignment.

What I do is heat the hands briefly and apply very gentle forces that do NOT immediately produce "snicks"... after a few cycles of heating, things ease back into place. I feel them resolve but they aren't vigorous enough to make sound.

Whole thing only takes a minute; any heat source, even hot water, will provide the same thing. A main danger is stressing the hands with ordinary tasks before they are warmed up. Literately warming them up and gently encouraging out the kinks first thing in the morning holds to avoid issues all day.

I'll relate something else - little repetitive stress injuries due to a CHANGE. A while back my left index distal joint began to hurt for some particular neck positions. I suspected something in the way I used my finger in everyday things had changed and decided to find out the cause. Every time I used that finger I took note of whether this was a new thing that might be the problem.

The first day I found it. The float valve in one of my toilets was no longer floating, so procrastinating until I decided to fix it I had been pushing down the handle for about 10 seconds each flush - with my index finger. I changed to not doing it that way and in a few days it got better, but not completely.

I resumed the hunt for suspect finger loads and then found the rest of the problem. I had recently begun using a heavy ceramic mug my niece had made for me (painted picture of my guitar on it). It had a little handle like a tea cup that only had room for my index finger... I went back to my little cups with bigger handles and in a few more days all was well.

the hunt for repetition and relatively new finger movement/use is intriguing. It’s quite possible my troubles began with the repetitive flipping of the proverbial bird to people wearing maga hats

[Dennis D]

I drink coffee or tea each morning. I resist flexing, bending, pushing, or pulling my cold fingers until after the pot boils and the cup made. While the element is still hot after turning it off, I hold my hands together with the L/R fingers and thumbs opposed to each other and press very gently as I rotate my wrists back and forth.

A lot of people hop out of bed and within a minute or so work their fingers, listening to the confirming audible "snicks" as things pushed and pulled kind of snap back into normal alignment.

What I do is heat the hands briefly and apply very gentle forces that do NOT immediately produce "snicks"... after a few cycles of heating, things ease back into place. I feel them resolve but they aren't vigorous enough to make sound.

Whole thing only takes a minute; any heat source, even hot water, will provide the same thing. A main danger is stressing the hands with ordinary tasks before they are warmed up. Literately warming them up and gently encouraging out the kinks first thing in the morning holds to avoid issues all day.

I'll relate something else - little repetitive stress injuries due to a CHANGE. A while back my left index distal joint began to hurt for some particular neck positions. I suspected something in the way I used my finger in everyday things had changed and decided to find out the cause. Every time I used that finger I took note of whether this was a new thing that might be the problem.

The first day I found it. The float valve in one of my toilets was no longer floating, so procrastinating until I decided to fix it I had been pushing down the handle for about 10 seconds each flush - with my index finger. I changed to not doing it that way and in a few days it got better, but not completely.

I resumed the hunt for suspect finger loads and then found the rest of the problem. I had recently begun using a heavy ceramic mug my niece had made for me (painted picture of my guitar on it). It had a little handle like a tea cup that only had room for my index finger... I went back to my little cups with bigger handles and in a few more days all was well.

My chiropractor recommended doing some easy general stretches even before getting out of bed, maybe a minute's worth. And when I had planter fasciitis one of the Doc's explained how during each night's sleep, the body tries to heal the mini-muscle and tendon ' tears ' it has experienced during the day.. Then first thing each morning, we get at our days as usual, and re-tear everything .

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I’ve been trying compression gloves at bedtime and wear them overnight. It seems to be helping.

[Mick-7]

I’ve been trying compression gloves at bedtime and wear them overnight. It seems to be helping.

That makes sense, it works for the other extremities, i.e., feet and lower legs, but it wouldn't have occurred to me.

[ccroft]

I’ve been trying compression gloves at bedtime and wear them overnight. It seems to be helping.

I hadn't heard of such gloves when this was posted. I googled. They're often called 'arthritis gloves' so at first I thought they wouldn't help, but I read comments from folks online who used them for tendonitis as well. So I got some.

For the past 5 or 6 years I've had swelling at the first joint of my middle 2 fingers along with more general pain and stiffness. Not the cystic thing like Keith Richards. More of a baggy appearance. I've done the exercises, ice baths followed by warm baths (pro athlete style), Voltaren, ibuprofen, and witch doctoring :) I stopped playing altogether for 2 months to try to heal. It all helps, but the swelling continued.

There was immediate improvement from wearing the gloves overnight. Then my left thumb started complaining after a few days. I cut the thumb out of the glove. A few weeks on and my left fingers look normal and feel so much better.

So a huge thank you to Mark, and to the existence of this forum! Super valuable!

(maybe this comment belongs in gear and gizmos? :)

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I hadn't heard of such gloves when this was posted. I googled. They're often called 'arthritis gloves' so at first I thought they wouldn't help, but I read comments from folks online who used them for tendonitis as well. So I got some.

For the past 5 or 6 years I've had swelling at the first joint of my middle 2 fingers along with more general pain and stiffness. Not the cystic thing like Keith Richards. More of a baggy appearance. I've done the exercises, ice baths followed by warm baths (pro athlete style), Voltaren, ibuprofen, and witch doctoring I stopped playing altogether for 2 months to try to heal. It all helps, but the swelling continued.

There was immediate improvement from wearing the gloves overnight. Then my left thumb started complaining after a few days. I cut the thumb out of the glove. A few weeks on and my left fingers look normal and feel so much better.

So a huge thank you to Mark, and to the existence of this forum! Super valuable!

(maybe this comment belongs in gear and gizmos?

What happened to your thumb exactly? My left thumb has started a trigger finger thing out of nowhere. Could the glove cause that. I think I’ll cut off the thumb and see what happens

[ccroft]

I got general stiffness in the thumb and some pain when flexing the last joint. I guess it could lead to something like you describe. It felt very much like the tendonitis in my fingers, and from what little I know trigger finger is a tendon problem.

What I'm trying to treat is very localized to my fingers, so cutting the thumb off had no impact there. Except for making the thumb feel better. Go for it.

Jeez. The hand is such a complicated contraption!

[pcjazz]

I am 75 and have osteoarthritis. Fortunately I live in Canada with access to medicinal cannabis. Ingesting a little cbd oil in the morning and cbn oil in the evening makes a big difference to my mobility — hips, knees, wrists and fingers.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I am 75 and have osteoarthritis. Fortunately I live in Canada with access to medicinal cannabis. Ingesting a little cbd oil in the morning and cbn oil in the evening makes a big difference to my mobility — hips, knees, wrists and fingers.

thanks for this. Can you post links (or photos) of the exact products? All cannabis is legal now in many of the US states, including where I live. (NY)

[nyc chaz]

What happened to your thumb exactly? My left thumb has started a trigger finger thing out of nowhere. Could the glove cause that. I think I’ll cut off the thumb and see what happens

I've had both tendon problems and arthritis for the last 17 years.Compression gloves will not cause or help trigger finger.For tendon problems,trigger finger splints have helped me tremendously and i have rehabilitated 3 fingers using them.You should wear them on your finger or fingers as the case may be at night and see if that helps.You might have to wear them also during the day as much as possible for the tendon to reconnect.My most recent problem was the tendon in my thumb.I used the splint for a week combined wth diciofenac topical gel and the thumb is working 100 percent relatively pain free.

17 years ago i went to a hand doctor in NY cosidered the"best" and he told me both my thumbs were very arthritic and that my days of playing guitar were numbered.I tried a total vegan diet for 18 months and it did nothing for the arthritis.I started drinking green tea instead of coffee and taking fish oil supplements and after a few months my arthritis felt much better.Combined with the gel i mentioned above, i am still playing 17 years later.Can i play as long as when i was young,no but i can usually play at least an 90 minute or two hours a day which i am very grateful for.

[Mick-7]

This sounds like the way to go: An open-label feasibility trial of transdermal cannabidiol for hand osteoarthritis | Scientific Reports

And it is commercially available, but it's not inexpensive....

From Google AI:
Tolcylen Transdermal CBG/CBD Cream is a specialized topical for foot/ankle pain, often sold through podiatrists, with prices varying but expect around $60-$120 for different sizes, like $120 for 100ml or $60 for 30ml, depending on supplier and current promotions, offering high cannabinoid content for targeted relief.

Where to Find It: This product is often provided by foot and ankle specialists (podiatrists) for non-surgical pain relief, so check with local clinics or their online stores.

Key Features: Combines CBG (Cannabigerol) and CBD (Cannabidiol) for enhanced effects. High cannabinoid concentration (e.g., 6000mg total complex) for targeted pain relief. Lightweight, easy-to-apply cream for skin and muscles.

[pcjazz]

thanks for this. Can you post links (or photos) of the exact products? All cannabis is legal now in many of the US states, including where I live. (NY)

Here is a link to my supplier, but you might need to be registered as a medical marijuana user to have full access to the catalogue. (And the website doesn’t play well with Safari but works in Chrome.)

Aurora Cannabis | Canadian Licensed Medical Cannabis Producer

I use the Cannimed CBD 1:20 oil and the Medipharm CBN 1:2 nighttime formula.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Here is a link to my supplier, but you might need to be registered as a medical marijuana user to have full access to the catalogue. (And the website doesn’t play well with Safari but works in Chrome.)

Aurora Cannabis | Canadian Licensed Medical Cannabis Producer

I use the Cannimed CBD 1:20 oil and the Medipharm CBN 1:2 nighttime formula.

Thanks!!! I’ll show this to my dealer

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Instead of trying compression gloves ad bedtime (who are stopping blood circulation in the thumbs),STOP to place CLOTHESLINES on your guitar, "à la Georges Benson".
Do not exceed a string gauge greater than 010-052,and if it still hurts,010-046

It will cost you a modification of the guitar neck ,done by your luthier.

And practice hands relaxation exercices

NB
Cannabis

THC is risky, especially in older adults. Expect cognitive impairment, sedation, dizziness, and a real increase in fall risk. Orthostatic hypotension can occur and is a deal-breaker in frail patients.

CBD is better tolerated, but it’s not harmless. It interacts with CYP3A4 and CYP2C19, potentially boosting the effects of antihypertensives and sedatives.

Product quality is inconsistent. Label claims are unreliable, and actual THC/CBD content may differ substantially.

HB (former physician)