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Well, this is quite humbling. I spent some time working up a George Benson lick to fit over bars 5 and 6 of rhythm changes. I got it to 130bpm in double time and recorded it, feeling quite satisfied. But when I listen back at half speed, I hear the timing of the notes is all over the place and the final note, which should end on the 1 of the second bar, is nowhere near.
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10-10-2025 11:56 AM
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Maybe figure out what part of it is causing trouble; like, if it's a string change, think about pick slanting. Otherwise, work on playing at the desired tempo part of the lick on one string, before introducing the string change.
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It sounds like you're playing it fast enough. One common source of trouble is being unable to execute the line at the required tempo but I don't hear that as the problem in this case.
What might be more relevant is the accenting of the notes. It might be worth slowing it down and accenting the downbeats to create a kind of cadence. And when that gets tight, speed it back up.
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Cliff, Is this what you played? I didn't try to notate the rhythms correctly.
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Thanks guys for your thoughts. Yeah, I think I need to work it in chunks of four and ensure each of the first four notes is landing correctly on the beat. Listening back again I hear the first two notes are too close together - these are played economy style, which is notorious for being able to play in even time. Sounds like once I descend, the top note has too much emphasis and lasts too long, and then the remaining descending notes are a bit too slow, leaving me finishing quite a bit late. At least the notes are 'clean', so far as I can tell: the left and right hands sound (and feel) in sync to me, and all notes ring clear. Before I got into jazz around 5 years ago I spent way too much time running scales at speed in an effort to get faster (for shred rock style). I never did manage to play 16ths cleanly much about 120bpm. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole again - I much prefer thinking about the musical aspects of jazz - but maybe I'll purse this as a side project. After all, 8ths at 260 (the same physical speed as what I'm attempting here) is not considered particularly fast by bebop standards.
Mick, the notes are intended to be a constant stream of 16ths, starting on the one of the first bar and ending on the one of the third. I don't have music notation, but I guess the important thing is likely which notes fall on which strings. So: 4th string C; 3rd string Eb, F; 2nd string G Bb A Ab G; 3rd string F, E, Eb; 4th string Db, Bb, B, C; 5th string Gb G.
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That doesn't add up, the phrase in 16th notes would only last one measure, are there 17 notes in the phrase as I notated?
Originally Posted by CliffR
I would use down strokes whenever I change strings, and pick every 2nd or 3rd note.
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You're right. This was originally an 8th note phrase and I was getting mixed up. Yes, 17 notes. Starting on the one and ending on the one of the following bar.
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I don't know the tune or the recording you're trying to emulate, so I could be wrong. The bass line seems to me to be a 1-6-2-5 in Ab, but you begin that phrase a 16th note after the F. If the bass line is a 1-6-2-5 in Ab (which is what it sounds like to me), the 1 of the first bar would be defined by the Ab in the bass line and you're 5 sixteenth notes late coming in. So your description and your playing don't jive. Originally Posted by CliffR
Your tempo wanders and it sounds like you're having trouble maintaining the pace because you're trying to play too fast for your chops. I don't think your picking style makes a difference. Most pros with great technique learned to play with consistent time, volume, and tone by practicing scales - all of them. Just working up a few bars as a phrase and playing that phrase faster and faster won't give you the skill and dexterity you want. You need to start slowly enough so that you can play whatever you're playing with consistent control over the timing, loudness, and tone of each and every note. Once you have that, start increasing your speed - but only as much as allows you to maintain that control.
Many great players use many different picking methods - there's no best one for all of us. You have to find the one(s) that work best for you. But I'd slow down to a pace at which you can play what you want to play well, and work up from there. Just playing it faster is counterproductive unless you can keep it even and under control. It takes a lot of practice and a critical ear. Speed kills technique if speed is your only goal. It helps to look at what you're playing (whether improvised or written) as a melody, not just a burst of notes. Even when improvising, you should be able to "see" it and hear what you want lines and phrases to sound like in your head. Then you have to be able to play them so it sounds that way to those hearing you play.
You have a great feel for it all, Cliff. But I think you need to practice the nuts and bolts to get where you want to go.
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Agree with this. Except the only thing I would add is that one needs to test whether one's picking mechanic is sufficiently efficient by performing a tremolo at 140+ BPM. Once that is established, linking the left and right hands and all of that is very much as you say - starting slow to build coordination. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Well, you're not playing straight 16th notes, so you'll need to achieve that first at that tempo. Jumping from 130 to double time without mastering the tempos between the two won't work for the reasons NSH gave. Originally Posted by CliffR
Actually, you said this was an issue for you:
To me that suggests a deficiency in your technique. Originally Posted by CliffR
P.S. - I see that I can't play this line smoothly in 8th notes at 250bpm either so I shouldn't be giving advice on it.
Last edited by Mick-7; 10-11-2025 at 12:26 PM.
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My impression is that economy pickers can maintain the same Picking dynamics over a wide range of tempos. However, that does not seem to be as true for alternate pickers. Repositioning the pick for string skips has to be accounted for. This is done by some players with hammers or pull offs. It may require re-fingering the passage to put more consecutive notes on the same string. It's problem solving -- different for every phrase.
That said, my impression is that you can address your issue by slowing down and focusing on the accenting of the first note in each group of four sixteenths.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-11-2025 at 02:43 PM.
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Don’t neglect the accurate timing of the left hand
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Thanks! That really made my day - one of the nicest things I've ever heard about my playing. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I was confused about you thinking I was out by 5/16ths. I mean, I know my timing is not great, but I didn't think it was that bad! I think I've figured out what's going on. The chords are Fm7/Bb7 and EbM7/Ab7 on a loop. I'm actually playing an AbM7 lick over the Fm7/Bb7. So yes, my first note is roughly around the F you hear in the bass, but that is on the first beat. The Ab in the bass you hear is the last beat of the Ab7 on the loop. I can totally believe I'm a 16th note late to hit that first beat.
All that being said, yes, I acknowledge I need to slow down and tighten up before trying to run at this tempo. Thanks again for the feedback!
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Hey Cliff,
You play faster single lines than I can, so take this with a grain of salt.
I'm only chiming in here to say slowing it down and increasing the clicks in small intervals is essentially the only way, isn't it?
At that tempo it is pretty straight I think, what about playing it slower and straight?
Great idea from Guy above, that's what I would do. It's still impressive, good work.
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One reason you'e having trouble with this is that you'e describing one thing but playing another. I'm confused by what I hear, and I suspect you are too. Every time I listen to that clip, I hear 1-6-2-5 over 2 bars. The first note is the Ab and you start the lick a 1/16th after the bass plays an F on the 3rd beat of the first bar. If you're saying that the progression over which you'e playing is actually 6-2-5-1, why does the clip start with the bass playing an Ab on the first beat? Start the backing track at the F two beats later and let it run for 2 or 4 bars before you start playing over it. Originally Posted by CliffR
It's possible that there's so much latency in your recording system that you're hearing one thing while recording but capturing another. Latency can delay a track recorded alongside a backing track by more than a beat. But you should be hearing this in every recording you make.
Context would be very helpful, which is why I asked before which Benson recording you'e trying to emulate. I'm no expert on Benson's discography and body of work, but I don't recognize the phrase from any of the Benson recordings I have or know. Maybe it does go over F-Bb-Eb-Ab, but that's not obvious to me from the clip you posted. From what recording did you get that lick?
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Break your technique down into simpler components and evaluate it. Can you tremolo pick at 130 bpm comfortably and consistently? If so, can you alternate pick a simple pattern on a single string at that tempo? If so, can you economy pick a 3nps scale cleanly and comfortably at that tempo? Find the weak link and practice some exercises that target it.
It can be difficult to economy pick with good time, but it's not inherently impossible. Getting good time feel just requires practicing with good time feel. The majority of practice should be done with perfect time; sometimes breaking an upper speed limit requires allowing it to slip a little, but that should be the exception. So if you can't keep an excerise in time at a certain tempo, slow it down to where you can and work it there, while also identifying and targeting whatever mechanical aspect is preventing perfect time.
Also when you're evaluating your time during practice, be as detailed and perfect as possible. Really paying attention to details at slower speeds will build a strong foundation that will translate to higher speeds too.
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I made a recording at a slower tempo that hopefully illustrates what I'm attempting. I also played what I hear as the bass notes on 1 and 3 for a few bars before playing the lick. Yes, I hear that even at this tempo my double-time line is not very steady.
The lick itself is a George Benson lick that I lifted from his version of All The Things You Are. It's over the GM7 at around 1m37s here, although I vary the last couple of notes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqrARRD_OKE
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your first note is too short. it is supposed to be the 1 but phrased like a pick-up. it must sound like: doo be-doo be-doo be-doo be-doo. it can even out somewhat as it gets faster. try to think in consecutive 4 note cells.
Last edited by djg; 10-14-2025 at 03:36 AM.
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Now it makes more sense! Originally Posted by CliffR
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I'm not seeing the lick in that video clip, Cliff, it's about 1 min. & 37 seconds long so obviously it doesn't occur around that time stamp. Originally Posted by CliffR
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Doh! You're right. It's somewhere between 17s and 18s in - right on the first beat of the GM7. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Cliff, that's a very difficult phrase to play very fast with the correct feel/rhythm. Originally Posted by CliffR
Personally, I would need to slow the video down to half speed to play-a-long with the phrase to get the correct feel/rhythm.
Keep up the good work.
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I actually think that's pretty good. I doubt I would do any better. That seems to be an awkward lick. It seems to me like you're leaving some notes out when I compare it to the notation.
I'm also working on my double timing. For me, I wouldn't start with a lick like that, I'd do more square groupings and inflections.
I came up with this standard template for phrasing 16th notes. It gets them to 'swing' in their straight lil way.
Beat 1 - First group of 4 16th notes. Motif.
Beat 2. Motif prime. Continuation or subtle tweak of the beat 1 motif.
Beat 3. Response. Counter or call and response to the 1st motif.
Beat 4. Response prime. Continuation or subtle tweak of the beat 3 response.Last edited by Strat-itis; 10-16-2025 at 01:33 AM.
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Cliff, is the main purpose here technique or vocabulary? Obviously both, but is there a primary? Originally Posted by Strat-itis
If you are just getting lines under your fingers to use in your playing (rather than pushing your technical boundaries), I am a big fan of taking a lick and changing all the hard parts.
Like if there is an awkward phrase you can shed it and improve your technique, or most likely you could change one note and make it half as difficult to play.
For some reason, things natural on the guitar stick with me twice as well as hard stuff I had to shed twice as long (you'd think the more you play it the more it sticks). Bleh sorry you get the point
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i listened to the portion at 0:16 and onwards. it is clear now. i'm talking in G:
you can not really isolate the line the way you did. the first note in the Gmaj bar, the B belongs to the phrase that comes before.
even though you got consecutive eight notes, there are two phrases present.
the first II-V phrase that *ends* on the B. and the phrase you want to study that actually starts on the 1+. namely on the D.
as per hal galper, bird and bach: contrary to popular belief the 1 is usually the *end* of the bar.
i can almost guarantee you that your problem with this lick immediately goes away once you start it on the and of 1 and on the D.
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