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I was told on the internet that i didn’t need to do that!
Originally Posted by joe2758
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07-29-2025 03:12 PM
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"level of music" is such a can of worms
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If you really understand what jazz is, you're always just below the level of where you need to be, there's always an untapped mystery of technique, concept or mastery that informs the eternal search.
The idea of ultimate level of mastery is largely a myth. You get old, and new ground becomes harder to find and you work with younger musicians. That's the cycle of discovery and discovery is what jazz is about.
You're never there. But you're always going.
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Jazz is a constant work – simply.
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Yes, you need satisfactory technical skills to play jazz well. And the more technique you have, the more it does benefit you. You can realize crazier stuff. Although you don't have to be shreddin to realize really musical stuff. Musicality and technique are interrelated.
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I was just listening to this interview with Kenny Dorham in which he said he had to practice several hours a day in order to keep up with Charlie Parker -- http://jazzstreams.ddns.net:8808/KJA...nny-Dorham.mp3
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Not a fan of the word "prowess" here; it's like you're trying to prove something. It evokes swordsmanship, stuff related to physical bravery.
Having chops is probably more appropriate in a jazz context, and it sounds like you can play a bit, but intend (and need) to continue learning.
JMO.
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It does not always work that way at least with the bike. I ride typically every day 40-60 miles and I can tell you that sometimes I get tired and need a break. I actually think that applies to playing the guitar. A player can get a bit stiff and mechanical if they just start running and not thinking or applying. If find if I take a day off from playing after some heavy days of playing I come back the next better. Originally Posted by Doug B
As for the bike I need a few days of complete rest to try and spin a century at full boat speed or effort.
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^60 miles a day? That's at least 4 hours, so you have to be retired (so pretty damn fit) or in the food delivery biz.
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I ride a bike doing 6-10 km a day.
It is certainly cool but it has nothing to do with the guitar.
Swimming in the pool is also fun.
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Sure, but that's not really a fair comparison: The reason you need to take some days off the bike is entirely due to the physical nature of the activity; your body needs recovery or you run the risk of doing actual damage to muscles, ligaments, joints, tendons. With guitar technique, one doesn't have to stop studying to avoid potential physical damage; one simply has to stop playing (or cut back on the duration of one's playing sessions) to avoid repetitive stress injuries. You can continue learning every single day even if you're not holding a guitar in your hands 24/7, and it's the learning that improves your "technical prowess". Originally Posted by deacon Mark
It's nearly impossible to read an article about cycling -- e.g., "high-speed descending/cornering technique" -- and come away a better cyclist without first getting (back) on the bike and attempting to apply what you read. In contrast, one can become a better musician through knowledge aquisition away from their instrument.
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I wonder if another idea fits here. In strength training, people often lift weights regularly but complain of very slow progress in building that all-important lean muscle mass. I'm not talking about bodybuilding, but the building of necessary muscle mass to accelerate calorie burn, provide strength for agility in avoiding falls, and padding joints, etc. There is a concept in strength training called "repping to failure" which means either increasing the weight or increasing the reps (or both) until one simply cannot lift another one. It isn't about injury, but simply hitting the point where you can't do another rep. That signals the body that it needs to produce more muscle mass, and regularly (and intelligently) repping to failure will significantly increase improvement. I also know in the life of the mind this is true also. Reading more challenging books, thinking through harder issues and problems, having conversations with more challenging and thought-provoking people almost seems like "repping to failure" in the intangible sphere.
In music, I make a point of periodically listening to players widely respected for their musicianship but whose playing has never really appealed to me. Often there comes a point where I actually "get it" and grasp what they are doing and my own playing is helped by that.
Perhaps also in the realm of technique, musical vocabulary, etc. attempting ever more challenging playing can be like "repping to failure" where as we try to practice right at the outer edge of what we are capable of, that boundary begins to move.
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Inspired by Lawson's post above: "Working on" playing an instrument is not a single activity, nor is the goal a single, monolithic one*. There are the motor skills that enable speed and accuracy and fluidity--exercises and "practice"--but those are not the same as the knowing-that part we call "theory"--understanding how chords work, or where to find notes and sequences on the fretboard, or the names of modes and scales and how they relate to each other, or the names of the rhythmic patterns.** And neither of those is what I would call "musicality," which is enabled by the physiological and theoretical activities of those two central domains.
This taxonomy applies to all the expressive activities (AKA "arts") I can think of. The art and craft I have mastered is writing--I've practiced and taught it for my entire adult life, and that same knowing-that/knowing-how distinction applies there as well (though the skills-exercising part does not have a physical component). Teaching writing required that I be able to name a range of grammatical, linguistic, and rhetorical machineries so I could explain what was going on in any piece of text. And I also needed to understand the kinds of work regimens that underlie production. But the doing itself was something the students had to discover--how to use the tools and understandings and work protocols to somehow produce writing worth reading. That's the equivalent of musicality, and it's something that can be learned but not taught. (Though coaching is a kind of teaching--at arm's length.)
* "Playing well" is a term that covers a bundle of skills that come together in the moment of performance--it's a judgment that the audience makes, and a sufficiently analytical audience will be able to pick apart the components and identify varying levels of accomplishment even in a single performance. I do it every time I listen to the jazz group I used to sit in with--"good time, good tone, unsurprising invention on the solo, one really clever phrase. . . ."
** I took a drumming workshop with a teacher who knew all that stuff inside out--but he didn't give us much advice about how to work on the components--it was nearly all knowing-that. Now I can hear those patterns better, but I am no better at reproducing them. I got more mileage out of few minutes with a flamenco-playing classmate who showed me how to construct complex patterns by clapping in sets of twos and threes.
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Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Oh of course. I didn't mean a daily increase. Sure there are some times when you need a bit of rest ; but over time you slowly increase your ride. You have to change things up a bit-go ride a different route.
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Technical skills can be learned over time. Some players do simply have more ability to get around the guitar than others. Jim Hall played great but he was not John McLaughlin. Herb Ellis and Joe Pass played together many times. Herb sounds great and is but he did not match Joe for technical skills.
To me the real outsider was Wes. He managed with the thumb to do things and play tempos fine. He always sounded in control.
Jazz at times and in soloing can become competitive history of it supports this statement. Some have more chops than others but that is not the end all.
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The more motivated you are to master the instrument and music, the more likely you are to develop repetitive strain injuries. By definition, these are self-inflicted injuries.
Horn players can lose motor control of their lip, string and keyboard players their hands, etc. In golf the yips are an example, writer's cramp is another, runner's dystonia, etc., etc. There seems to be a dose dependent relationship for the development of this problem. It should be noted that this is a neurological problem occurring in the brain, not in the muscles of the legs, hands, face, etc. There is a derangement in the area of the cortex controlling motor function and possibly also haptic perception.
Julian Lage developed focal motor dystonia in his left hand, which could easily have been career ending (FMDs are all too often irreversible). As I understand it from a published interview, in Julian's case he apparently subjectively lost the sensation of having separate fingers of his left hand at a gig. By the end of the gig had only one finger he could actually use. I don't know if that was what motivated him to get into the Alexander Technique or if he had already been studying that before this occurred. He was fortunate in that he was able to rehab and regain full functioning. Billy McLaughlin is also a guitarist well known for having developed this problem; he had to completely change how he approached the instrument. There was a special on public TV about this, which I think might be the first time I heard of it.
RSIs and FMDs can happen in young folks (high school and college age) as well as older folks- music schools and conservatories are incubators for RSIs. Motivated students, high demands, pressure to perfection, huge amount of material to learn, etc., create conditions ripe for this. Many music schools have classes in the Alexander Technique in hopes of helping students avoid this complication in their lives. I am auditing the AT class at the local university in the fall semester, myself, and took a weeklong workshop this summer. I have found it immediately helpful in terms of comfort with the instrument as well as interacting with the world on a daily basis. I have much less neck and shoulder pain, can quickly reduce it when it does occur, and less low back pain as well. After 45 years of playing guitar, I have a lot of unhelpful motor habits around the instrument. When I call it the "guitargoyle" position, you'll probably know immediately what I mean.
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That's utterly false. You mean to tell me that if you activate your brain aggressively over time, that it develops a movement disorder? These disorders are due to physical breakdown of the body and overusing the fingers and other fine tissue function. Although the problem still becomes systemic of neurologic function. Do drummers or vibraphone players have their brain break down because they play a lot of rhythm but don't overuse their fine tissues? No. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Is more attention given to the importance of physical conditioning in classical music conservatories? (seem so to me).
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I think not. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Exactly how I manage to get my miles in. When I retired at 65 I was determined not to turn into a couch potato. I feel better for my daily bike rides at now 71 then I did at 51! Originally Posted by Peter C
More energy for guitar as well!
Doug
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Disagree. Any form of exercise, especially aerobic enhances your overall well being. As long as you don;'t over do it. guitar player or not. 10km per day is not enough to get much benefit from. Still better than nothing! Originally Posted by kris
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It all depends on the grade and pace of the ride. Though, I shouldn't talk, I live on country highways and don't ride anymore. It's no fun sharing the road with semi-trucks going 65mph. Makes Chicago traffic seem safe. Originally Posted by Doug B
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I beg to differ! You that you have no idea about this problem. It does happen and I had it happen to my legs. I have a lower leg disfunction that has no known cause they can tell me. I was a long-distance runner for 40 years. Over the past 6 years lost my ability to run. I can walk fine although my gait is odd. I have plenty of leg strength and normally now ride a road bike daily. I can ride pretty hard and fast and long for an older guy, but I cannot in any way even take a step of running. It is the oddest thing, and I personally attribute it to years of running and over time picked up bad habits. Then trying to stay on top of it thinking too much it got worse. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
In the medical literature it is called dystonia and concert pianist have been known to get the problem and lose all their ability to play. Guitarist too. Believe me it is real and still a mystery. So far with playing the guitar no problems. Just don't ask me to run to get a guitar before someone steals it off the stand. The movement neurologist I saw did a whole work up. Battery of emg, head MRI, and testing. She could tell me what is was not, but not what it was and seemed to not even like my diagnosis of dystonia.
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Sometimes I ride my bike for about 20 km, but not every day. Originally Posted by Doug B
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Wow. Way to completely misunderstand and misconstrue what was said. Try this: Originally Posted by Strat-itis
Focal dystonia - Wikipedia
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/healt...focal-dystonia
The problem isn't in the musician's hand, the runner's leg, etc. It's in the brain, in the sensorimotor cortext which controls voluntary use of our muscles. Not sure why that seems such an anathema to you. I remember the same reaction from someone back in the r.m.m.g.j days- just couldn't stand the notion that the source of the problem is in the brain.Last edited by Cunamara; 08-04-2025 at 09:13 PM.
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