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I've written a lot about the pitfalls of vintage instruments. I bought this '63 Gibson Barney Kessel last year and the pickups (billed as originals) had been swapped out and the bracing had to be re-glued. It was missing the BK badge on the tailpiece which is pretty common on these. One surprise is that the tailpiece has brazilian rosewood where the badge rests.
I recently bought a repro badge and took it into my luthier to install because it needed some additional setup and something is vibrating and I thought perhaps the bracing had come loose.
My luthier said the bracing was cool but that the bridge base was sagging to the point of lifting up the edges. It can't really be fixed and to complicate matters, the bridge screws are not centered in the footer. So, if I bought a replacement bridge base, it would not sit in the same location, would potentially sound different and would reveal wood underneath that doesn't match the patina of the rest of the exposed top.
So he's going to carve out a new footer for it out of brazilian ($$$) and replace the nylon saddles with nickel plated (my preference over nylon).
Anyway, just wanted to say that when you buy a vintage instrument, there are a lot of pitfalls, not too dissimilar to my 66 year old body!
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06-05-2024 02:21 PM
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I think folks forget this when recommending 1950's archtops to less experienced players. Vintage guitars sound great. But vintage issues don't map well to the current reality of online commerce with brick and mortar music stores no longer providing (with rare exception) archtops to browse and play. Vintage guitars require a lot of expert insight and inspection.
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The wavy grain on the top of that flatsawn bridge base ... with time you'd expect that to sag. Hopefully your person can find a nice quartersawn piece (or skew?). After that, it will be better than new.
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The cost of labor here in California is quite high. I expect luthier work to cost $100 an hour or more. And finding a luthier with the skill set to work on archtops is not easy. A vintage guitar that has not been expertly restored with the last 20 years will need a lot of expensive work.
Buying sight unseen means that you will have unseen problems. I have bought two guitars that had changed pickups which were not disclosed to me (who removes a pickup to check it out even with an in person purchase?) and which cost me money to get the full benefit of my bargain.
Vintage cars, vintage motorcycles and vintage guitars (not to mention vintage houses) have all cost me a lot of money and given me plenty of headaches.
Ignore the pitfalls at your peril.
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There is a potential way to fix the sagging. Not complicated and possibly easy given you can get under the top to work with the pickup cavities open. It involves matching a curved brace under the top where the bridge sits to strengthen and push up a little. I can't type the procedure but i you PM me I would explain it over phone for your luthier.
Originally Posted by jzucker
I've written a lot about the pitfalls of vintage instruments. I bought this '63 Gibson Barney Kessel last year and the pickups (billed as originals) had been swapped out and the bracing had to be re-glued. It was missing the BK badge on the tailpiece which is pretty common on these. One surprise is that the tailpiece has brazilian rosewood where the badge rests.
I recently bought a repro badge and took it into my luthier to install because it needed some additional setup and something is vibrating and I thought perhaps the bracing had come loose.
My luthier said the bracing was cool but that the bridge base was sagging to the point of lifting up the edges. It can't really be fixed and to complicate matters, the bridge screws are not centered in the footer. So, if I bought a replacement bridge base, it would not sit in the same location, would potentially sound different and would reveal wood underneath that doesn't match the patina of the rest of the exposed top.
So he's going to carve out a new footer for it out of brazilian ($$$) and replace the nylon saddles with nickel plated (my preference over nylon).
Anyway, just wanted to say that when you buy a vintage instrument, there are a lot of pitfalls, not too dissimilar to my 66 year old body!
I reread your post and seems the bridge bass is sagging not guitar top. In that case yes a new bridge bass but not sure based on description.
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I would also replace base with a full footprint on the top. This spreads the load much better and reduces chance of top sagging or misalignment in future. Performance and functionality are more important than vintage originality.
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The top on my BK Custom sagged so bad, they had to raze the entire top and rebuild it. I got rid of it, because it sounded like a POS. Originally Posted by jzucker
I've written a lot about the pitfalls of vintage instruments. I bought this '63 Gibson Barney Kessel last year and the pickups (billed as originals) had been swapped out and the bracing had to be re-glued. It was missing the BK badge on the tailpiece which is pretty common on these. One surprise is that the tailpiece has brazilian rosewood where the badge rests.
I recently bought a repro badge and took it into my luthier to install because it needed some additional setup and something is vibrating and I thought perhaps the bracing had come loose.
My luthier said the bracing was cool but that the bridge base was sagging to the point of lifting up the edges. It can't really be fixed and to complicate matters, the bridge screws are not centered in the footer. So, if I bought a replacement bridge base, it would not sit in the same location, would potentially sound different and would reveal wood underneath that doesn't match the patina of the rest of the exposed top.
So he's going to carve out a new footer for it out of brazilian ($$$) and replace the nylon saddles with nickel plated (my preference over nylon).
Anyway, just wanted to say that when you buy a vintage instrument, there are a lot of pitfalls, not too dissimilar to my 66 year old body!
Jzucker, I wanted to ask you if you ever got anything out of that chromatic scale study that Danny Gatton included on his instructional video that's online.
It's the one in open position that starts on the open low E string that has five notes per string until you reach the G# on the 4th fret of the high E string. He said on the video to never practice it fast, and even has trouble playing it himself using alt. picking. At what tempo do you play it at?
Did you ever ask him about it?
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I'd say that with most vintage archtops the end reward when you deal with those niggles is well worth it.
It's not an especially valuable or rare instrument, but I bought a 1960 Levin 335 acoustic. It needed a neck reset and will soon need refretting, but it's one of the best sounding and playing guitars I have. There's no modern carved top guitar that would come close for the price the Levin cost, even including the neck reset etc.
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Vintage is just another term for 'old and used', but it sounds much more attractive to prospective buyers.
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If that's the case, the next time I'm asked my age I'll simply say, "I'm vintage!"
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My daughter-in-law gave me a (fake) Calvin and Hobbes T-shirt with the text: I'm not old, I'm a Classic. My fave.
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Being vintage sounds better than old and tired. I am old and tired, but maybe thinking of myself as vintage will make me feel better.
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However, new archtops can potentially have a lot of issues as well, most of them involving wood moving.. It is generally a tricky thing, archtops, acoustics, you can spend thousands and end up with a problematic instrument. It makes me wish i was into electrics more..
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What a bunch of weenies, complaining about these young guitars. Wrestle with +200 year old violins to understand vintage.
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There are no rules. Only statistics. The chance of repairs or extra maintenance effort definitely increases with age. But it also crucially depends on the instrument’s history. It matters if it’s been strung with 14s or with 11s for 50 years. It matters if it lived its live in Phoenix, in London or in Singapore. It matters which pieces of wood ended up in it. It matters if it got damaged and how well that was repaired. On top of all that, there’s Murphy.
Someone I know has a 30s L5, had it for decades, never had anything done to it. It plays well, sounds well, completely worry-free. He also has a 50s L5. Same thing. I have a ‘37 L7 that looks like it’s been dragged behind a train for 20 miles. I had to have it refretted and had to have the fingerboard binding replaced, because it had been played so much that both were completely worn away. Other than that, it’s worry-free (so far).
I agree that you run a higher risk when buying a vintage archtop compared to, say, a new Ibby GB10. But the risk doesn’t have to be high, unless you buy unseen.
@OP: hopefully your guitar will be up & running shortly!
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Its probably more or less finished bending by now and with just an 0015 clearance there seems to be enough wood in the bridge feet that they could still be filed to fit. Considering that the bridge has a heavy metal top, the reduced weight in the base from filing would be unimportant. Originally Posted by enalnitram
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I’m a bit confused by your luthier’s opinion, Jack. First, the gap under that area of the footer is only 15 thou. It should be easy to lay thin abrasive paper grit side up on the top and reshape the bottom of the base to conform perfectly - this is a routine maneuver for them. Removing 15 thou (plus the minuscule extra to get the entire base to be perfectly concentric with the top) shouldn’t change anything except the quality of fit to the top. Just put it back where it is now, and it will look no different. It looks like you have plenty of room to raise the bridge top to compensate and keep the action the same. Originally Posted by jzucker
Second, the bass side bridge stud does appear to be offset a mm or less toward the tailpiece from the centerline of the bridge base. But if your intonation is fine now, your saddles would have more than enough room to compensate if you replaced the bridge base (which I don’t think you need to do, as above).
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Remember that long-term memory is known to increasingly improve with age! Originally Posted by sgosnell
Being vintage sounds better than old and tired. I am old and tired, but maybe thinking of myself as vintage will make me feel better.
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Hmmm, old archtops can have problems, new archtops can have problems. The only answer is to have a bunch of spares of both.
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Except no one calls (or used to call them) vintage. Maybe the term hadn't come en vogue yet, but we just called them old. Or authentic. Originally Posted by Cavalier
Plus... only 200 years, and violins? Try cellos, gambas or double basses for interesting age-related issues!
I had a teacher who's daily player was an instrument by an uncle (or so) of Jakob Stainer. It looks like any old gypsy violin (probably smells a bit like it too) but AFAIK it's perfectly reliable.
I don't think vintage necessarily means used, btw. I have a vintage Stanton pickup diamond that I bought "NOS" for instance.
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Actually my "old" (?) violins are perfectly reliable and daily players. Every now and then one needs work that I do, this February one got a new fingerboard and tailpiece. Any instrument is better off played and maintained to keep it in good health. I have resurrected a number of instruments that sat for a good 100 years or so and it is a job that can take steady hands and good nerves. I do use some "vintage" guitars. I work on them too when needed, much less delicate hence the weenies observation.
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Every bowed instrument that gets played will need a fingerboard replacement at some point (and hopefully "much" more frequent reshaping of that part). I'm not aware that tailpieces wear out but I suppose they can. Originally Posted by Cavalier
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That is correct. Originally Posted by RJVB
"I'm not aware that tailpieces wear out but I suppose they can."
That is understandable.
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