Gibson L-4CES – good deal or not so good deal?

[Herbie]

I found an offer for a Gibson L4CES that's built in 1986/1987.

An inheritance of a jazz guitarist sells it.

Price is good (if You got the money).

In fact so good that I started to think that is this a good deal or is there something I don't see?

What do You experts think?

[customxke]

I don’t think anyone can tell if it’s a good deal without knowing the price. That top crack is going to knock more than a dollar off.

[Herbie]

I don’t think anyone can tell if it’s a good deal without knowing the price. That top crack is going to knock more than a dollar off.

Under 4000 euros.

"The crack" – You mean the darker stripe starting from the bridge pickup?

[Jimmy blue note]

From the proximity to the pickup screw, the lack of close detailed photo on that spot, I say it looks like a top split along the grain line. From the wear and finish, it also looks like it was not a recent repair which would tempt me to say it was split, repaired, cleated and stable. But I'd still like a mirror view of the underside.
It looks nicely played, not a collector's piece but very possibly a player's workhorse. To that end, I'd try it out and make sure the neck is good, frets don't need replacement and tolerances are good. Then try it to see if it's comfortable. Guitars are as individual as nicely worn gloves; they fit somebody but you decide if it's you.
Under 4000 is a fair range if the guitar is good. I like the solid tops on these.
Personally, if I were a 175 kind of guy and wanted one closer to an L-5, it would be tempting, but nothing is a bargain if you're not going to get music out of it...and enjoy it.

It's a player's guitar. If it's your dream guitar, it's a good price. Still a lot of money for a wall hanging.

[Herbie]

From the proximity to the pickup screw, the lack of close detailed photo on that spot, I say it looks like a top split along the grain line. From the wear and finish, it also looks like it was not a recent repair which would tempt me to say it was split, repaired, cleated and stable. But I'd still like a mirror view of the underside.
It looks nicely played, not a collector's piece but very possibly a player's workhorse. To that end, I'd try it out and make sure the neck is good, frets don't need replacement and tolerances are good. Then try it to see if it's comfortable. Guitars are as individual as nicely worn gloves; they fit somebody but you decide if it's you.
Under 4000 is a fair range if the guitar is good. I like the solid tops on these.
Personally, if I were a 175 kind of guy and wanted one closer to an L-5, it would be tempting, but nothing is a bargain if you're not going to get music out of it...and enjoy it.

It's a player's guitar. If it's your dream guitar, it's a good price. Still a lot of money for a wall hanging.

Thanks for the insight!

Yeah, I guess one would need closer photos. Looking closer and playing this guitar before buying is not very easy, the guitar is about 1571 km (1000 miles) away from me in another country.

I think I am definitely an ES-175 guy, and I have understood that L4CES is same sized guitar, so this would be easy to adjust with.

But on the other hand I have never dreamed about L4CES, because they have been too pricey. And I have understood that they are prone to feedback.

At the moment my most played jazz guitar is an ES-175 from 1984, so maybe two years younger L4CES would be too much the same...

So I hope someone buys the L4CES fast so I wouldn't have to think about it!

[Jabberwocky]

Based on your photos, €4000 is too much to pay for it for me. I might part with €2500, if I like it very much.

[John A.]

Like JBN said, whether this is a good price really depends on what all the stuff you can't see in the pictures is like. In the use 4000 EUR ($4400-ish) seems about right for one in good playing condition. Perfect ones seem to be going for about $5k in the US, (what friend of mine paid for one, and roughly the average Reverb sold listing), but it's hard to be confident because they're fairly rare.

I think the main thing to keep in mind if you're a "175 guy" is that an L4 is not just a fancier 175. It has a different sound because it has a carved spruce top and because the neck pickup is in a different position. It's a great sound, and I'd be more than happy with one (if I were looking), but if the thought process is "just like a 175 but nicer," you should probably try one first.

[deacon Mark]

I think it is priced way too high given condition.

[jzucker]

Like JBN said, whether this is a good price really depends on what all the stuff you can't see in the pictures is like. In the use 4000 EUR ($4400-ish) seems about right for one in good playing condition. Perfect ones seem to be going for about $5k in the US, (what friend of mine paid for one, and roughly the average Reverb sold listing), but it's hard to be confident because they're fairly rare.

I think the main thing to keep in mind if you're a "175 guy" is that an L4 is not just a fancier 175. It has a different sound because it has a carved spruce top and because the neck pickup is in a different position. It's a great sound, and I'd be more than happy with one (if I were looking), but if the thought process is "just like a 175 but nicer," you should probably try one first.

it's also slightly thicker , not the same depth as a 175

[mr. beaumont]

The L4 is even deeper than the 175? I thought the 175 was about as "deep" as an archtop got.

[John A.]

it's also slightly thicker , not the same depth as a 175

The L4 is even deeper than the 175? I thought the 175 was about as "deep" as an archtop got.

All the written specs I've ever seen for both say the depth is 3-3/8", but I've read/heard anecdotally that they're not 100% consistent and some are a little thicker. Jack has both, so maybe he can measure?

[jzucker]

measuring at the rear point of the F-hole at the edge

175: 3.4"
L4: 3.6" almost 3/16 thicker

[John A.]

measuring at the rear point of the F-hole at the edge

175: 3.4"
L4: 3.6" almost 3/16 thicker

A friend of mine has 1 of each. I'm curious now, and will see if I can get him to measure.

[Jimmy blue note]

There are lots of things that determine whether a guitar is worth the market value, or even what the market value is.
My feeling is (minority opinion), if it's been played in, it goes up in value. If it's played in so it knows how to sing and it inspires you to use that to your advantage... like an ES-175 that has the soft organic response of a compact L-5, as a player, that's worth WAY more than a pristine L-4 that's been worshipped in a glass case even if it is oiled and polished weekly.

It's why it's so much trouble to evaluate a used guitar by photos alone... why to a player, an old seasoned dog may possess qualities that you CAN'T buy or have installed on a similar guitar.

I've tried really nice guitars, ones that just oozed music in my hands. They were priced more than I thought I should pay. To this day, those are the ones where I can still fell the vibe. I am convinced that I would not have missed the extra $700 I could have paid (or what it was), and those are qualities I look for in any guitar now.

The more I play, the more my calculus for an instrument's worth changes. I always look for a partner for life. Does the price of the ring determine the value of a person (or guitar) you look forward to playing with every day?
Just a differing perspective from some players and some collectors.

[Ob Com]

I bought an 89 L-4 CES recently which had had several top cracks (from an impact) repaired by a well regarded luthier

the guitar had been a working jazzer’s main axe for many, many years- plenty of finish wear on the back of the neck down to the wood, dimples on the back from suit buttons or something rubbing against it (what is the jazz equivalent of buckle rash?)

Man, that thing sings!

it just makes you want to play it and I can’t put it down

For reference OP I paid £3,200 for it if that helps with your query

good luck with your hunt

[jonasb]

I just found this old thread by chance! Funny, as the guitar is with me now

What looked like a crack in the top seems to be nothing structural and a result of the outgassing pick guard which discolored the wood. Besides that the guitar was in overall great condition with hardly any dents or scratches. I mean, under all that dust and dirt. So after a proper cleaning it was shining great, especially for that age. I swapped the corroded pickup covers, changed the non-original bridge for an ABR-1 and added a replica pickguard. Recently it also had a refret done and was plec'd. Now it plays and sounds wonderfully!

[2bornot2bop]

Inflation! I bought this 2013 Hutch’ mahogany back for $2700 in 2015.

Great guitar! Crazy that their prices have nearly doubled!