The Bose L1 Compact

**fep** · 06-02-2010, 08:25 PM

Pat Metheny is on tour doing his Orchestrion tour. I saw it, it was incredible.

He started with a few solo guitar pieces and then after that...

For all but one tune it was basically a really sophisticated backing track setup.

For that one other tune it was a really sophisticated looper set up.

I imagine this was all very much acceptable by the jazz world that somehow poo poos on others playing with backing tracks. And I think most would consider these Metheny concerts to be jazz.

Metheny has no need to play with backing tracks, he's doing it because he wants to... Playing with backing tracks, if it's good enough for Metheny then it's good enough...

**merseybeat** · 06-03-2010, 01:48 AM

I concur! Go suck an egg Gumbo

Eddie

**merseybeat** · 06-03-2010, 04:21 AM

Anyhow getting back to the Bose L1 Compact! I am using my Boss BR600 with drums bass and Guitar all on separate tracks. The Drums and upright bass are rendered from BIAB. And ported into Sonar 8.5 Producer. I recorded my own Rhythm guitar on a separate track! Using a Waves Q1 Parametric EQ on both Guitar and bass tracks I roll the Bass at around 500 Hz (Lo Pass) and start the Rhythm Guitar Q1 at 100 (Hi Pass). I used the Sonitus Multi-band compressor on the kit to catch any transience.

I then port the "balanced" individual tracks to my Boss BR600 and finally I cut a shallow groove (-3db on Boss BR600 Master output) between 100 Hz to 5Khz to allow my "Live" guitar to breath!

Plug in the BR600 to the Compact one RCA connectors!

Guitar- Gibson 137 Custom (Neck Pick-up) through my Boss GT10 with a tiny amount of reverb and a little compression to smooth out the guitar (As RonJazz pointed out, the naked guitar is toooo clinical).

The overall outcome? Absolutely brilliant! This is the best sound I have ever had in my 30+ years of playing! And as all cats know! If you have a good sound to start you play better!

Actually the 137 suits a little compression as it gives that awesome "Benson" sound!

RonJazz, I thank you and all the others who have provided feedback here!

Kind regards

Eddie

**fep** · 06-03-2010, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Now one thing I noticed on the L1 Compact was that band in a box real tracks are not produced! They may be compressed but they are not "banded". Non of the other systems picked this up! So yes the L1 Compact is very accurate indeed!

Next step is to port my BIAB tracks into Sonar and Band the bass guitar correctly and maybe cut a groove in the mix for my nice Gibson 137 custom to have the space to play over ! Oh happy days! I feel reborn!

Eddie

A couple of questions:

What does "banded" mean?

Are the BIAB tracks compressed? Why would you want them to be compressed?

**merseybeat** · 06-03-2010, 09:39 AM

What does "banded" mean?

Sorry this used to be a term we used in our Liverpool Studio! It means "Placed Correctly In The Spectrum" Ideally every instrument should be given its own space in the spectrum but this is easier said than done!

Are the BIAB tracks compressed? Why would you want them to be compressed

Some of the real tracks will have been compressed slightly on the original recording to protect them from maxing out (Peaking).

Compression/Limiter in this case is a treatment and not an effect!

Any mixing engineer or recording engineer will always use a little, if for nothing else, to protect his equipment!

BIAB generates great backing, but put it into a DAW and remaster and you have excellent professional quality backing!

Eddie

**fep** · 06-03-2010, 10:17 AM

Thanks Eddie,

The term I've seen for banding is "Frequency Sloting" - i.e. giving intruments that compete for the same space in the frequency spectrum their own unique eq shape... provides better seperation.

Compression is such a big topic (eq is too). But I agree with what you said.

BTW, I also use Sonar Producer as my DAW. I haven't bothered to import BIAB though as I just use BIAB as a practice tool. Seems like a lot of work, I sometimes spend as much time mixing a project as I do recording it.

**cosmic gumbo** · 06-03-2010, 10:23 AM

It's a shame that for the price of all that gear you can't hire a sideman to play with you. But if that's your real situation and you don't have the skills to do a solo gig, then karaoke style is your only choice, I guess.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-03-2010, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by derek

The difference is what you call it. From a purist stand point, it isn't jazz.

maybe time to split threads, but is solo playing in general "jazz?"

**merseybeat** · 06-03-2010, 10:44 AM

Gumbo Man! your such a tit! This is my thread so go and play elsewhere! Thanks to the real musicians here I have got a solution to my problem! Obviously you like playing solo! Figures!

Eddie

**derek** · 06-03-2010, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

maybe time to split threads, but is solo playing in general "jazz?"

Well, that certainly gets us back into the age old discussion of "what is jazz"?

Does it swing?
Is everything subject to being improvised?

If it passes those (and others you might suggest), then why would the number of instruments involved matter?

**fep** · 06-03-2010, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by derek

Well, that certainly gets us back into the age old discussion of "what is jazz"?

Does it swing?
Is everything subject to being improvised?

If it passes those (and others you might suggest), then why would the number of instruments involved matter?

I think the point is...

Pat Metheny Orchestrion concert...

1) Plays the first few pieces on solo guitar... includes improvisations.

2) Plays the rest of the concert with baking tracks... impovises over the backing tracks. (or as Gumbo would say, Pat Metheny playing karaoke)

From your "jazz purist" definition, #2 is not jazz, but #1? It seems like quite a stretch to say #2 isn't jazz but #1 is.

Pat Metheny, 1st 15 minutes a jazz concert the next 2 hours not a jazz concert?

**mr. beaumont** · 06-03-2010, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by derek

Well, that certainly gets us back into the age old discussion of "what is jazz"?

Does it swing?
Is everything subject to being improvised?

If it passes those (and others you might suggest), then why would the number of instruments involved matter?

I wasn't sure if the other "old school" criteria of group improvisation or interplay was necessary...but to a certain extent, that eliminates some big band stuff too, right?

I consider what I do (when i play solo) "jazz" because I'm playing "jazz" songs and improvising every chance I get...I like discussions like this, because, if the OP is improvising HIS part, then can it be jazz? Or does the canned background eliminate that because the parameters are too "set?"

we might definitely want a thread split, as I'm hijacking this one something serious now...either that, or a backhanded slap and a "Mr. B, snap out of it!"

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 06-03-2010, 12:01 PM

B: (After listening) That's jazz.
A: The background tracks were recorded and the guitarists played over them.
B: That's not jazz.
A: No wait, I was thinking of another track. That was all live.
B: That's jazz.
A: Did I mention the backing was done by a computer...
B: That's not jazz.
A: ... using a sophisticated AI improvising program
B: That's jazz
A: ... but that setting was shut off on this tune.
...

**merseybeat** · 06-03-2010, 12:13 PM

Lol too funny! Hey Mr. B no problem, hijack away! I was just annoyed with the idiot! more to the fact that he has no forum profile but a very big mouth!

You guys have helped me out so much over this last year...Total respect!

Me I am happy playing my Jazz minor improvs over my new Karaoke machine! Or should that be "The Not Jazz Minor" Scale???

Eddie

**derek** · 06-04-2010, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I wasn't sure if the other "old school" criteria of group improvisation or interplay was necessary...but to a certain extent, that eliminates some big band stuff too, right?

I consider what I do (when i play solo) "jazz" because I'm playing "jazz" songs and improvising every chance I get...I like discussions like this, because, if the OP is improvising HIS part, then can it be jazz? Or does the canned background eliminate that because the parameters are too "set?"

we might definitely want a thread split, as I'm hijacking this one something serious now...either that, or a backhanded slap and a "Mr. B, snap out of it!"

Yeah, I don't know. I certainly see both sides of the viewpoint, but at the end of the day, think jazz snobbery helps limit it's broader appeal.

I just dig making music, all kinds of music. When I started out solo, I was highly tempted in include my looper on some or all of the tunes I perform, so I could blow over a chorus I just comped and looped. I haven't done it because I know where I want to be as a player and knew it would stunt my growth.

What works for one might not work for another. I am all for letting people play what they want, how they want. I do think there are some agreed upon criteria for what is jazz, but as lovers of jazz, I doubt we would be able to get a consensus here. If we can't agree on it, how could there possibly be a definition that all can agree on?

**JohnW400** · 06-04-2010, 12:43 PM

I remember seeing horn players on street corners with their 'boom boxes' back in the 80's. The'd have their backing tracks on a cassette and have at it in the subway or anywhere people would pass and the cops wouldn't hassle you.

I know a singer that carries her backing tracks on CD and in the key she sings in. She got tired of going to jams sessions or whatever, and none of the musicians wanting to transpose to 'her' key.

I don't know if it's jazz (by strict definition) or not. I only know that these guys were doing whatever it took to play and they gotta get points for that.

**merseybeat** · 06-04-2010, 12:47 PM

I agree

Thing is Derek, I can play solo! but that's not my direction at all now! I suppose I could have put a full orchestra in my Karaoke setup but I haven't! I just put my ideal line-up in there i.e. Upright Bass and percussion! Oh and me! We have a pool party tonight with about 100 or so people and I am going to be providing a little background music! So watch this space!

When I get back to the UK I will most certainly find a Percussionist and Bass cat and start playing with them! But for now I m treating my Karaoke sessions as practice. I figure if I practice to a live audience then I can only win! Unless they throw me and my system into the pool that is!

Eddie

PS Jazz purists? I used to know an apparent jazz anorak who thought Bix Beiderbecke was great as the incredible hulk!

**derek** · 06-04-2010, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

I agree

Thing is Derek, I can play solo! but that's not my direction at all now! I suppose I could have put a full orchestra in my Karaoke setup but I haven't! I just put my ideal line-up in there i.e. Upright Bass and percussion! Oh and me! We have a pool party tonight with about 100 or so people and I am going to be providing a little background music! So watch this space!

When I get back to the UK I will most certainly find a Percussionist and Bass cat and start playing with them! But for now I m treating my Karaoke sessions as practice. I figure if I practice to a live audience then I can only win! Unless they throw me and my system into the pool that is!

Eddie

PS Jazz purists? I used to know an apparent jazz anorak who thought Bix Beiderbecke was great as the incredible hulk!

Sounds like a fun gig. Look forward to hearing how it goes.

**markf** · 06-04-2010, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Cheers guys! The funny thing is there are thousands of Club singers out there performing standards with a backing track and this seems acceptable! Especially in the UK where the Pub music licence (Another taxed rip) has squeezed out the bands!

BIAB actually generates great backing (I used the rendered tracks and put them into a DAW for editing and production and they are as good as a commercially available backing tracks anyday).

Also I see loads of players shredding over a looper all over Youtube! So whats the difference?

Mr B I totally agree and around 5 of my numbers are just me playing solo but I also like to let rip now and then!

Regards

Eddie

agree one hundred percent.

solo guitar, in a large room, sounds pretty small. unless you are pretty spectacular.

not to mention the fatigue factor, playing solo for three hours for me, with a few short breaks, would be really unenjoyable, hard work, and not much more.

here's a bit of heresy. I have Joe Pass virtuoso cd. honestly, it puts me to sleep. and I hear a lot of riffs in there. as in it is so hard to play solo guitar, that even for a guy like Joe Pass , it is difficult to keep it interesting.

(ducks head)

**merseybeat** · 06-05-2010, 01:26 AM

Thanks Mark, that exactly what I wanted to say! I played for around 90 mins and everyone told me they enjoyed it! I do an awful lot of Gypsy Jazz in my set and I only enjoy playing it over a "Le pompe style strumming". I usually do "Minor Swing" at 260BPM for fun so in all reality "Playing solo" to me would NOT be fun!

Another at 260 BPM is "samba de orfeu" which I do start slowly (just me) but I do the Barney Kessel version which is percussion/rhythm heavy and it just wouldn't work any other way! (I had people up dancing to this).

Anyhow it may not be "real" jazz but man it sure was fun!

Someone once said to me "You need to practice 100% in order to get 20% out in a live show" So why not just practice 100% live if you have the chance?

Eddie

**markf** · 06-05-2010, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by derek

I just dig making music, all kinds of music. When I started out solo, I was highly tempted in include my looper on some or all of the tunes I perform, so I could blow over a chorus I just comped and looped.

I haven't done it because I know where I want to be as a player and knew it would stunt my growth.
?

and based on my experience using my looper and not using it, for some of us, NOT using it at all, can (in some ways) stunt your growth as well.

If you have opportunities to play in a group, as well as solo, that's a different story.

and maybe it also depends on the venue. small place, lounge, solo guitar .... great.

big place, lots of blabbing and noise, might not be so great.

And I greatly admire any player who can get up with just an acoustic guitar, and be good enough to listen to, and excite/stimulate/entertain people, and get their attention.

But I think that in such performances, a lot of what is played is not improvised. which is fine too, ....... can't end my thought.

**fep** · 06-05-2010, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by markf

And I greatly admire any player who can get up with just an acoustic guitar, and be good enough to listen to, and excite/stimulate/entertain people, and get their attention.

Solo performance... Joe Pass or James Taylor.

I'd say the overwhelming majority of listeners (including some jazz musciians) would be more attentive and entertained by James Taylor. Not sure what my point is though...

**markf** · 06-05-2010, 09:47 AM

as for the "purists"

If jazz guitar players were all purists, we would all be playing acoustic guitars, with no pickup, and strumming backup rhythm to trumpet and sax players.

Wynton Marsalis :

Don't worry about what others say about your music. Pursue whatever you are hearing.