1958 Gibson ES-125

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Show me a Stradivari in original condition.

And I'd bet dollars to donuts that every single surviving Strad has at least one significant crack repair.

[wintermoon]

And I'd bet dollars to donuts that every single surviving Strad has at least one significant crack repair.

Not to mention either an elongated neck or a replaced one.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Not to mention either an elongated neck or a replaced one.

Even the Messiah Strad has several mods.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Herbie]

Neat old ES-125. The body is original. The finish appears original. All the hardware has been swapped for modern replacement hardware, except for the bridge and pickguard. Maybe the bridge is original, I can't tell from the pix posted. Post a shot of the bridge from the side for review.

This all makes sense, because old Gibson ES-125 models are simply not worth much money. Old dogear P-90s are used to restore old ES-175, ES-300, ES-350 and ES-5 guitars, all of which are worth considerably more than old ES-125 guitars.

However, old Gibson Les Paul Juniors are worth MUCH more money, are far more popular, and use the same hardware, except for the bridge and pickguard, so they are most often the recipients of donor hardware from comparatively inexpensive old ES-125 models.

Here is pics from the bridge. Seems legit, I guess.

[Herbie]

I’ll second this. If it was my guitar. I would put a modern Gibson P90 in it.

P-90 Dogear (Black Cover, 2-Conductor, Potted, Alnico 5, 8K) | Gibson

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I love Gibson P-90s, in the moment I have 3 guitars with them.

But after intensive net search I don't find any Gibson P-90 Dogear pickups for sale in Finland at the moment. Nearest is used one in Austria... and it is not fully convincing (only one pic offered).

But we have new Seymour Duncan Antiquity P-90 Dogears for sale here. I would get it about this week.

Hmmm!

[Herbie]

Herbie, esteemed countryman, congratulations! Not so many years (or was it decades) ago I snubbed at these, and not alone. Now I'd drool over a sample like yours. Is the ES-125 the best example of what aging can do, even to a cheap build? Or does nostalgia factor in? You say you may not like the brightness vs. an ES-175. You must have known the a P90 is brighter than a humbucker. You'll discover its merit when playing with the band. As for replaced parts, why are we so pristine about old guitars with new details, if we are changing PU's, tuning machines and whatever on contemporary guitars all the time? Show me a Stradivari in original condition.

Thanks, Markku!

I don't care for the historic accuracy – if I am not charged for it! This guitar's price tag was such that it included original pickup.

But Yesterday I asked about this from the seller, and to my glad surprise he promised to pay back 900€ from the price.

Fair enough!

[Hammertone]

Here is pics from the bridge. Seems legit, I guess.

The bridge base appears original.
The bridge saddle is not original.

[Herbie]

The bridge base appears original.
The bridge saddle is not original.

Ok, thanks. Please educate, how do You know?

[ThatRhythmMan]

I love Gibson P-90s, in the moment I have 3 guitars with them.

But after intensive net search I don't find any Gibson P-90 Dogear pickups for sale in Finland at the moment. Nearest is used one in Austria... and it is not fully convincing (only one pic offered).

But we have new Seymour Duncan Antiquity P-90 Dogears for sale here. I would get it about this week.

Hmmm!

If you want the Gibson one, I can help get one to you. Just let me know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Herbie]

If you want the Gibson one, I can help get one to you. Just let me know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the generous offer!

But... I suppose You live in US and I live here over the pond, so the shippings and taxes would make the bill huge.

And besides: I already ordered a Antiquity P90 for this so if it does not sound good enough, I'll ask You again!

[ruger9]

Thanks for the generous offer!

But... I suppose You live in US and I live here over the pond, so the shippings and taxes would make the bill huge.

And besides: I already ordered a Antiquity P90 for this so if it does not sound good enough, I'll ask You again!

I can't imagine you won't be happy with the Antiquity. I'm curious as to what pickup was in it since it wasn't original and you don't like it...

[Herbie]

I can't imagine you won't be happy with the Antiquity. I'm curious as to what pickup was in it since it wasn't original and you don't like it...

There was a time when I had Antiquity P90s in all my P90-guitars... before I tried to rehab myself from constant tinkering...

The pickup in the ES-125 sounds sterile and harsh. Maybe it is unsuitable pots, maybe it is something about the acoustic properties of the guitar. But I'll bet it is the pickup!

There is a pic of it in the post #19. If someone can recognize it, I'd be glad!

[John A.]

I’ve seen pictures of Gibson P90s with open mounting tabs like that. So that detail per se doesn’t mean it’s not original (or a Gibson pickup at any rate). It does look a bit too shiny to be a ‘58, but if it sounds good, I’d say leave it alone. 125’s are great, and I’ll add to the chorus of people saying “I shoulda bought one when they were cheap.”

[Hammertone]

The bridge base appears original.
The bridge saddle is not original.

If you look at pictures of post-1952 Gibson rosewood archtop bridges, you'll see that the saddle has individual compensation for each string, and that the G string is compensated to be slightly shorter that the E-A-D strings, to accommodate wound G-strings. The B and high E strings are separately compensated, because they are typically unwound. This is very noticeable, and is a standard way to compensate such bridges.

The saddle on your bridge is compensated differently, in a way that does not correspond to anything Gibson has used. Once you compare it to a real Gibson saddle, as per the photo below, the differences are readily apparent.

The base looks original when compared to pictures of Gibson post '52 two-footed bridge bases.

[Herbie]

If you look at pictures of post-1952 Gibson rosewood archtop bridges, you'll see that the saddle has individual compensation for each string, and that the G string is compensated to be slightly shorter that the E-A-D strings, to accommodate wound G-strings. The B and high E strings are separately compensated, because they are typically unwound. This is very noticeable, and is a standard way to compensate such bridges.

The saddle on your bridge is compensated differently, in a way that does not correspond to anything Gibson has used. Once you compare it to a real Gibson saddle, as per the photo below, the differences are readily apparent.

The base looks original when compared to pictures of Gibson post '52 two-footed bridge bases.

Ok, thanks!

I have one spare bridge that looks like Yours, bought it somewhere cheap, but it would be more faithful to '50s spirit?

[ruger9]

Ok, thanks!

I have one spare bridge that looks like Yours, bought it somewhere cheap, but it would be more faithful to '50s spirit?

I'd say, if the current bridge intonates well (this of course depends heavily upon the exact positioning of the bridge base), leave it alone.

[Little Jay]

I run the Gibson ES-125 group and page on Facebook and have seen many many ES-125s… I am sorry to say that all the hardware and electronics on yours have been replaced for modern subs, except for the pickguard.

The good news is that it doesn’t really matter, it’s still a great guitar and a P90 is such a simple pickup that even most modern cheapo P90s sound fine, at least they do to me. That being said, for my ES-125 I found a 1947 P90 (from forum member Sam Sherry) including the old harness with gray PIO capacitor and it does sound (a little) better than the modern P90s I tried (I tried the SD Antiquity and a Lolar 50ies wound).

Your tailpiece does look like a Gibson or ABM tailpiece btw, just newer and chrome, as far as I can tell from the picturez (nickel would be period correct).

Here’s mine, only the pickguard and knobs were original, the rest is aftermarket or vintage original.

[Herbie]

I’ve seen pictures of Gibson P90s with open mounting tabs like that. So that detail per se doesn’t mean it’s not original (or a Gibson pickup at any rate). It does look a bit too shiny to be a ‘58, but if it sounds good, I’d say leave it alone. 125’s are great, and I’ll add to the chorus of people saying “I shoulda bought one when they were cheap.”

Open mounting tabs is one clue. Another is the way Gibson has always soldered the ground of the cable to the base of the pickup. This has not that.

I just measured the DCR of the pickup. It is 11,83 kOhms! This pu doesn't sound like hot, so they used different gauge wire than it is used in P-90s.

[Herbie]

Then the frets. About 2,3 mm wide, a bit over 1 mm high. Did they use this fret wire in 1958?





And the the case. Original?

Everything in it works just great. The handle might be after retrofitted.

[omphalopsychos]

Case is not original. Fretwire seems wider than original.

Again it’s an ES-125.

It’s a little interesting to me that you bought this making a bunch of assumptions about originality, but in your own words, it doesn’t great. You mentioned the pickup is thin and bland. Does it at least play well? Does it sound good acoustically? I know of people who can’t play and collect blackguards or Les Pauls and obsess over vintage details. But I don’t understand applying that attitude to an es 125. These are great sounding inexpensive and non collectible guitars. I hope once you set the SD pickup you’ll find yourself playing it more and worrying less about originality.

[John A.]

… inexpensive and non collectible guitars.

Not anymore.

I hope once you set the SD pickup you’ll find yourself playing it more and worrying less about originality.

Ditto.

[Herbie]

Case is not original. Fretwire seems wider than original.

Again it’s an ES-125.

It’s a little interesting to me that you bought this making a bunch of assumptions about originality, but in your own words, it doesn’t great. You mentioned the pickup is thin and bland. Does it at least play well? Does it sound good acoustically? I know of people who can’t play and collect blackguards or Les Pauls and obsess over vintage details. But I don’t understand applying that attitude to an es 125. These are great sounding inexpensive and non collectible guitars. I hope once you set the SD pickup you’ll find yourself playing it more and worrying less about originality.

Thanks again for the information!

I am not obsessed with historic details. I just like to know what I have, so I don't talk bullshit about it to anyone. For example if I am selling this someday. (Not very soon.)

This is my first 66 years old guitar. I don't know anything about these. I am learning all the time.

Acoustically the guitar is resonant and open. But previously I have played only in 1984-2015 made ES-175s with 2 pickups, so this is very different from them.

I am sorry if my never ending questions bother someone, I am just curious. And You guys here have been so helpful and full of information, hats off!

[Geunther]

Many many years before the internet I was fortunate to work alongside a guy who happened to know a lot about guitars. I had just started learning to play and gotten a very beaten up 60's Gibson SG for $150 (that's how long ago it was). I didn't really know what I had or even how to tell how good or bad it was - why did it have only one pickup when I saw others with two pickups? This guy loved to talk about all that stuff and bit by bit he passed on a lot of info; nickel vs chrome plating, nitro vs poly finishes, Brazilian rosewood, what are PAF pickups, Leo Fender didn't know how to play guitar, why should I get this amp or that amp, etc. His knowledge was encyclopedic and all fascinating to me, and it was all correct.

In spite of finding out most all your parts are not original, you are at least having the fun of discovery and learning like I was back then. Kudos to the seller for refunding a bit, sounds like they may have honestly thought the pickup was original. I totally don't mind having replacement parts on an old guitar if they function as well or better than originals, I do like replacement parts that maintain the original appearance. So I'm one of those guys who likes relic'd hardware. If that was mine I would consider swapping the tuners for original style 3-on-a-plate versions with round buttons. Anyway if it plays good and you like the SD Antiquity - enjoy!

[Herbie]

Many many years before the internet I was fortunate to work alongside a guy who happened to know a lot about guitars. I had just started learning to play and gotten a very beaten up 60's Gibson SG for $150 (that's how long ago it was). I didn't really know what I had or even how to tell how good or bad it was - why did it have only one pickup when I saw others with two pickups? This guy loved to talk about all that stuff and bit by bit he passed on a lot of info; nickel vs chrome plating, nitro vs poly finishes, Brazilian rosewood, what are PAF pickups, Leo Fender didn't know how to play guitar, why should I get this amp or that amp, etc. His knowledge was encyclopedic and all fascinating to me, and it was all correct.

In spite of finding out most all your parts are not original, you are at least having the fun of discovery and learning like I was back then. Kudos to the seller for refunding a bit, sounds like they may have honestly thought the pickup was original. I totally don't mind having replacement parts on an old guitar if they function as well or better than originals, I do like replacement parts that maintain the original appearance. So I'm one of those guys who likes relic'd hardware. If that was mine I would consider swapping the tuners for original style 3-on-a-plate versions with round buttons. Anyway if it plays good and you like the SD Antiquity - enjoy!

I too have been thinking about new tuners. Partly to reach a bit more authenticity, but mostly because these Schecter tuners are a bit confusing. Their turning ratio is possibly too big (?) so accurate tuning requires efforts that I have not had with my other guitars. Hmm.

I just changed the pickup and the vol pot from 500K to 300K. Surprisingly easy job this time...



My ears like it better now!

Thanks for everybody for information and encouraging spirit!

[garybaldy]

Oh my, Your prices in the US are really bargain compared to European prices. I paid for this a bit over double to that!

But not as much as this is asking:

Gibson ES-125 1957 - Sunburst | Reverb Finland

The prices are crazy now. I thought I paid over the top for my 63 175 but the 125s are getting closer and closer!