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I own two 16" Epiphones, both sound very different even with the same strings- Pyramid flats 12s
The body woods are very different in resonance.
The first is an Epiphone ES-295 made at Unsung Korea 2007
The second is a Joe Pass Emperor II made at Samick Korea 1997
Both play exceptionally well. The 295 has a Bigsby and the JPE has a Byrdland TP
The 295 was upgraded with SD Dog Ear Antiquities with custom made matching covers in blond by SD (typically only in black) custom shop by request.
The JP was upgraded with Seth Lovers, ebony floating bridge.
What strikes me as the biggest difference in these two guitars is the acoustic (and comparable electric) tone, mostly in the wood.
The JP is bright, light, and projects a great deal of mids acoustically, and that also translates somewhat via the pickups as those characteristics get sensed a bit by the strings. Overall it is quite obvious this is a medium body 16" bout, almost sounding like it is perhaps 15". The frequency response is great acoustically, but this guitar lacks the tone of a broader L5 character. Even with flats the guitar is lively in string tone. Actually a wonderful acoustic archtop in and of itself but slightly mid focused lacking any significantly deep bass.
The 295 sounds bigger, and deeper, while it actually shares the same dimensions of a 16" bout. It would be a better choice for playing Wes or any other iconic fat jazz tone material. The flats on this guitar really sound like flats with that thunk and thud. Maybe this is due to the mass of the bigsby resting on the top, but the dampening actually gives this guitar much more of that typical fat jazz tone.
So as a general rule if you were running the racks for a great hollow body for jazz in the vein of say an ES-175, which of these would you think was the keeper?
Would a great L5 or ES-175 actually be comprised of BOTH of these characters in one guitar?
My idea of a great guitar would likely be a Super 400 but that is a realistic pipe dream for me in this lifetime.
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02-08-2024 08:53 PM
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Every guitar I've ever played or heard sounds different from every other guitar. I have archtops ranging from 15" to 18", thinlines to full-depth, parallel and x-braced, solid carved and laminated tops. Every one has a different sound. Some sound better to me than others, but most just sound different, not better or worse. One of them is an Epi ES-175 Premium, which sounds very much like most ES-175s from Epi or Gibson. If I were looking for an ES-175 on a limited budget, that's where I would go. IME, which is certainly not comprehensive, archtops when played amplified tend, in the main, to sound a lot like their acoustic tone. Mine certainly do.
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If I played two, I'd probably have an opinion about which one sounded better or maybe that they sounded equal in desireability.
But, I couldn't extrapolate that to what to pick off a rack of guitars. From listening to a guitar, I couldn't identify bracing, or thickness, string gauge, bridge type, tailpiece type, neck joint or type of wood. I might be able to tell flats from rounds and maybe single coil from humbucker, although I could be fooled on those things too. I couldn't tell pot ohms or capacitor value. I doubt that I would be drawn to any particular configuration by sound.
When I evaluate a guitar I'm focused on ergonomics first. Then, once I'm satisfied that I can play it, the next issue is whether I can get my sound. The key issue is whether sustained notes in the upper register ring out really well. I don't want plinky. What characteristics do I believe a guitar needs to be able to do that? Maybe a humbucker rather than a single coil? Really good fret dressing? Maybe a glued in neck joint? Presumably there are other influential factors, but I have no idea which ones might be essential. I think I could be fooled about any of them.
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An ES-295 is an ES-175 with gold paint and a Bigsby (with the caveat that the "Premium" version of the Epi 175 and 295 from 2015-ish
Originally Posted by tjmicsak
both sound much more like a Gibson 175 than the other versions). A JP is a different guitar -- slightly different shape, different neck pickup position, different pickups), other differences in wood and construction, so the 295 is the more logical choice if you're trying to get closer to the sound of a real 175. Which is a keeper, though, is a matter of preference. The better guitar is the one you like more.
No. ES175's (laminated maple top, 16" body) and L5's (carved spruce top, 17" body) sound different from each other. The Epis you're talking about here sound more like a 175 than an L5 because their construction is much closer to a 175's. Originally Posted by tjmicsak
You never know. An L5 and a S400 are both both beautiful looking, very high quality instruments that sound amazing in the right hands. But that doesn't mean either is the right guitar for you. You have to just try stuff and figure out what works best for you. Originally Posted by tjmicsak
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I think it would depend on what sound you are going for. I like having one that sounds like a 175, and one that is a carved acoustic style arch top that produces an airier woody tone, more like a good L5 or JS.
A laminate 175 style might be more usable for gigging, the other might be a better recording guitar, or playing at home guitar. Lots of great jazz guitarists had this combination; they often left their D'Angellico at home! Or just used it in the studio. And better as an acoustic guitar perhaps.
But it's obviously a luxury to have two different guitars for two purposes and sounds. You need to decide which style is more pleasing and important to you. And playability and ergonomics play an important part as well.
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I have a carved-top Super 400 style guitar (not a Gibson, a Wu) and while it's a great-sounding guitar, I don't play it often because it's so big. An 18" lower bout with ~3.5" depth is just too big for my comfort. My daily driver is a 16"x2.5" Wu, because it's far more comfortable, and sounds as good, if not better. I also play a Benedetto Bambino Deluxe, but I like the sound of the Wu better. My Epi ES-175 Premium sounds as good, and plays as well, as the Benedetto, but it's also too deep for comfort. The best size is a totally subjective subject, and there are plenty of players who would prefer larger guitar bodies. I did once, but I'm not quite as young and supple as I once was.
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As a customer, I have certain generalized notions of what sort of sound to expect from a Stratocaster, Telecaster, Les Paul, ES-175, semi-hollow, carved archtop, floater versus set in humbucker, etc. But there are so many instruments out there that confound those expectations, so that you really have to play them and take each one at its individual merits. So many things seem to contribute to tone that might not be exactly the same from one ostensibly identical instrument to the next.
I mean, just think about how different the Gibson ES-175 sounds in the hands of different musicians: the exact same one in the hands of Howard Roberts vs. Jim Hall; or Joe Pass, Pat Metheny, Jonathan Kreisberg, Wes Montgomery on his first recording, Steve Howe, etc. There is no one Gibson ES-175 sound.
Heck, you can't even confidently predict tone based on the construction of the instrument. There are laminate archtop guitars with a wonderful acoustic voice (Painter, Borys and others, even some ES-175s) and carved archtops with kind of a small or dead acoustic voice (many L-5 CESes, for example). There is an interesting interview/video of Andersen Guitars building a double top laminated archtop with a Nomex sandwich construction, which has a startlingly lively acoustic voice when it is completed and played by Bill Frisell.
One of the best jazz guitar tones I have heard is from our own Dutchbopper playing a bog standard 1970s Stratocaster. With .010s that were years old.
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