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As much as I want a mesa boogie or some of these other amps.... I just plugged into my twin reverb and started playing at what can not go above 1.5 volume because my neighbors will start complaining of this BEAST of an amp twin reverb with JBL speakers and I'm realizing that I really just need a small bedroom style amp with an attentuator like the carr and spend on something high quality so the tone is nice.
Originally Posted by alltunes
Any other suggestion outside of carr? Which I'll look at now.
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12-19-2023 10:38 PM
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At the risk of over-simplifying, something like a Mesa Mark series amp has more gain stages than a Twin, and its gain stages are designed to run one into another (cascade), each causing the next to distort. This creates more pre-amp gain and distortion than is possible in an unmodified Twin. Lots of other amps do this now, but Mesa pretty much originated the concept (or at least was the first to do it on a commercial scale) Originally Posted by NYC
---------------------- Originally Posted by John A.
Can you elaborate on the detail you mentioned "a la mesa boogie, dumble and PR" as in the master volume truly driving the tubes rather than just cutting down on the signal to create a skinny breakup?
What is different about a mesa boogie or dumble for example (or specifically the mesa boogie) that allows the master volume to truly drive the tubes?
A volume control doesn't drive anything; it just reduces signal. In a Twin, it's after the gain stage that comes after the tone control. The higher up on the volume knob you go, the more signal you feed to the power section. After about 5, that's enough to begin distorting the power section. But what comes out of the pre-amp signal itself is still clean almost all the way up because of the way the pre-amp is designed. OTOH, a Mark series Boogie has more pre-amp gain stages, and more pre-amp volume controls, enabling you to fine tune how much each stage distorts the next. With all the pre-amp stages on 10, there's a lot more distortion (and sustain/compression)
A master volume is just another volume reducer later in the circuit. Depending on where exactly you put it (pre or post phase inverter), it can have slightly different effects. But if what comes out of the pre-amp is clean a MV can't make it distorted. All it can do is make the power section less distorted and quieter. The only way to get Boogie-like distortion with a Twin is to use a distortion and/or boost pedal in front of it (or mod it).
It's not the MV per se that differentiates any two amps. It's the overall circuit design. MV are useful for enabling pre-amp distortion on some amps at low(er) volume, and not on others depending on the overall design. Originally Posted by NYC
I haven't used either of those amps and have no opinion about them. Originally Posted by NYC
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I concur. Fender should copy the PRII exactly and reintroduce it to the world. It was a boutique amplifier before its time. I have the Super Pro variant with an oak enclosure and the Fender 12F speaker, made by Electro-Voice. The PRII Facebook group is the place to go in search of learning and amps to buy. Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
My other apartment amp is a Hiwatt Custom 7, which is a rare and splendid thing. Hand-wired Hiwatts sound nothing like Fenders, or any other amp. A Custom 20 would be easier to find, and would give you the edge of breakup tone you desire, but would probably be too much for your neighbours.
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No offense but a Boogie with a 4x10 seems like overkill for a home amp. Do you require onboard reverb? I found out I do so that caused me to sell some fantastic low wattage amps: Originally Posted by NYC
Victoria Ivy League (Fender Harvard copy)
Victoria 518 (Fender Tweed Champ copy)
I finally settled on a Headstrong Santa Cruz for my “home/bedroom/grab and go” amp. The Santa Cruz is housed in a slightly bigger cabinet to eliminate some of that boxiness of smaller cabs. It also has a mid control and a very nice usable reverb through all settings. Available as a 10” or a 12”. Finally the power tube socket can accept a 6v6, 6l6 or an El34 without a rebias.
What kind of music do you play?
With a budget of 5k you could pick up two smaller boutique amps. A proper Tweed Champ in a pine cabinet is a glorious thing. Really makes you explore your guitars knobs.
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I play blues, jam band type rock. Phish, grateful dead, the old tymy blues songs and the renditions of it. Mostly I like to improvise. I'm currently working with a teacher learning formal jazz guitar and jazz theory but jazz is a new frontier for me- at least playing it is. I have a nice twin reverb 1964 blackface pre cbs that is clean and I can play for jazz. It's in pristine condition. Great amp and plays cleans fine at low volume but cant do anything else at low volume of course. Even taking pedals is tough for it at low volume. Originally Posted by alltunes
I'd love something with a marshall-ish vibe as this new alternative amp for low volume break up. I thought the mark v would be good because it can shape so many tones i figured it would be a fix that could keep me plenty occupied for a long time. Plus my favorite guitarist, trey anastasio, played mark series for many years so i have that fanboy validation haha.
Bartel looks really nice but DAMN they are expensive.
I need something low wattage that will reach a break up for the other stuff which is what i'm seeking here.
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How are the victoria tweed amps? Are they more managable as far as volumes go than the fender tweed deluxe? As in, can you dial a tone in or are you stuck with the super loud unmanagable volume you get with a tweed deluxe which is a wonderful tone but not something you can even dial down really that well. Originally Posted by alltunes
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ToneMaster Twin? My pedal head buddy came over yesterday and he’s a gain addict. Set the ToneMaster at 5w, Vol at 9, lots of breakup with grateful ear drums.
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Mark V attenuates down to 10watts and has a very good master volume, fx loop, headphone plug in.... It'll be fine but I am still considering other options if anything better pops up. Originally Posted by alltunes
The soldano would really be pushing it and probably not going to happen.
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I'm sure thats a great amp but I'm just not going to be able to get on board with solid state or anything modeling. I need real tubes the real way. I've heard great things about those amps thought and I'd probably be wise to just get one but I can't bring myself to do it. Originally Posted by TedBPhx
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Victoria Ivy League has attenuated inputs (same as the original fender Harvard design). I have one and it sounds great at bedroom volumes.
The Carr Skylark and Carr Sportsman are also wonderful amps for low volume. The skylark might be better for you since it has a built in attenuator that doesn’t rob tone like other attenuators tend to do. I had one for a while and eventually sold it, but I would strongly recommend it for an at home amp. The tone stack is very fender sounding but more flexible (can go from blackface to tweed easily) and the reverb is wonderful.
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I’ve seen Phish many times mostly in the early nineties. Also lucky enough to see Garcia perform about 150 times so I also have a jam band background. I use some pedals at gigs but for me as an aspiring jazz guitarist it’s all about concentrating on the harmonic complexity of the music which is why I like to keep my rig stupid simple. As mentioned there is nothing as pure as guitar>>cord>>tasty tube amp.
A Tweed Champ has one knob….volume……… so it really forces you to work with your guitars volume and tone knobs. The Fender Custom Tweed Champ is nice but the Victoria 518 is better. I have owned them both. Victoriea also offer the Champ with a 12”
Regarding Victoria Tweed Amps….they are faithful recreations so would mimic their Fender counter parts generally though they are of much higher quality save Fender Custom shop amps.
Like I said with that type of budget I would add a Tweed Champ to your arsenal. Amps are like instruments in my book. Not one amp can do it all.
And yes a Tweed Champ is a very manageable volume. The way most single channels amps work is the volume knob will reach a certain point at which increases will add break up and not volume.
I need reverb in the amp which by design most tweeds don’t have. That is why I chose the Headstrong Santa Cruz. It’s the best of all worlds in a low wattage amp. EDIT: I mostly prefer clean-ish tones.
Headstrong Santa Cruz Amp — Headstrong Amplifiers boutique handwired Fender style tube ampsLast edited by alltunes; 12-20-2023 at 11:07 AM.
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I can't recommend an attenuator strongly enough. I use the fryette power station, but the ox box or boss tube amp expander will do the trick too. The key is one that completely loads the amp and then reamps the signal, not one that just siphons off some power. I live in a small Manhattan apartment. I have a 73 pro reverb, Victoria club deluxe, a fender tweed deluxe reissue, a 76 champ, and a mesa mark iv. None of them, not even the 5w champ, will get power tube breakup at a neighbor friendly volume lol. But with the power station, I can use all of them with whatever level of breakup I want. Plus, with your budget you'd still have room for a shiny new amp
I will say the mark series could fit what you're after too because it has dedicated gain channels and a master volume. My mark iv is perfectly capable of sounding like a fender, though a little more sterile and not as good reverb. And then obviously the gain channels are incredible.
But if you already have a nice amp, the power station will allow you to get the most out of it. And don't be fooled by fenders clean reputation; my pro reverb is all gain between volumes of 5 and 10. Normally those volumes are enough to shatter windows, but again with the power station I can get them at bedroom levels.
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If I had $5K to spend on a tube amp it (and I) would absolutely go straight to Andy Fuchs. I'm thinking ODS or ODS II @ 50 or 100 watts, and their 2x12 cabinet. He's in north New Jersey, so you could pop over and try his line and see if anything fits.
Guitar Amplifiers - Fuchs Audio
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I've been on the same boat for a while, and have found it's a very difficult quest to find a low wattage Tube amp that has good dirt capabilities at bedroom volume.
I tried the modeler route, Tone Masters amps (not Quilters though.. these seems pretty good), and really did not like the feel.
People who say these can replace the feel and sound of a good tube amp.. especially in the breakup zone.. I just don't understand ? Are they lying to themselves, autobias to prevent buyers remorse?
Whatever I've tried, I've never found a replacement for tube amps. I'm talking about the feel, the connection and overall pleasure, not so much the sound, even though.. well this is another debate.
I've found that maybe the best solution seems to go for an amp with a built in quality attenuator, like these for instance :
* Cornell Romany 12
* Tone King Falcon Grande
* Supro Amulet
* Skylark looks awesome, but sadly unfindable here in Europe.
My list above all have reverb, because I absolutly want one.
I've just discovered one amp that was really under my radar (and not just mine obviously..), the Fender Supersonic 22.. They really started bad in life with many QC problems, and are therefore quite unpopular.
But it seems Fender have solved the problems since..
It is loud, but I've read many (many) comments saying it sounds awesome at low volumes, and that the "Burn" Channel, correctly dialed in, is the best dirt channel Fender has accomplished (some report on the Marshall/Dumble side ?).
The Clean Channel is basically (that's what I've read) a Deluxe Reverb beefed up, and with the added "Fat" option..
So this one has got me very interested since a couple of days..
I'll keep watching this thread, maybe I'll be able to make my mind one day
I'm really about to pull the trigger on the Supersonic. It is said to be a Deluxe Reverb, with a great gain Channel, that sounds very good at low volumes, and is giggable.. Too good to be true ? Well the only way to find out is to give it a try ?
Just wanted to add the best candidate I have found to this day is the recent Fender Vibrochamp Reverb with a Tube Screamer..
Even this 5w amp will annoy the neighborhood if you try to atteign breakup without pedals..Last edited by Jx30510; 12-20-2023 at 03:54 PM.
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I have vintage Marshall, Vox and Fender amps and I can get them all to the scream zone if desired with a Fryette Power Station- works great. I see no reason to buy anything like a Mesa Boogie or a Solano for home use, those are stage amps.
I play mostly cleaner jazz but the guys I play with also like to do some Phish songs. I find I can get convincing Trey tones with a small Fender style amp and two stages of pedal gain, which in fact is exactly what Trey used for years. And I think trying to get accurate tube distortion tones at home is only possible with an attenuator.
Pedals are your friend here. Find a smallish Fender style amp so you can get good clean sounds and attenuate/ pedal your way to where you want to be. OP, don’t get caught up in the gear weeds, play music instead!
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That’s a stunning amp/cab pair! I’d love to give that a spin with my core DGT! About the OP’s question: the suggestion to throw in a good attenuator like the Ox is a good one. For 5k you can get several nice amps and the attenuator will make you enjoy them so much more. My personal favourite is left-field but I’ve never played a more enjoyable amp than my Brunetti SingleMan. They’re not easy to find, but affordable, very well made and sound like heaven. Originally Posted by Greywolf
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Lol, best amp better than anything else is quite a statement Originally Posted by Navdeep_Singh
With 5k you can buy 2 great amps (maybe one with 6L6/6V6 and one with EL84 if you wanna have different options) and a Ox Box; I really like the Carr Rambler or Sportsman that someone else mentioned or the 5 watt Swart STR Tremolo (that I own). I use it with a night light attenuator (for break up) or the Ox if I wanna play silent.
Otherwise you could consider a Two rock studio signature (on the higher end price)?
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Hi, To reach an edge of breakup at home is quite loud with a one channel tube amp. Exceptions are low wattage amps like a Tweed Champ (great warm sounding amp, just listen to Julian Lage's Live in Los Angeles album) with an unefficient speaker. While some modern boutique builders makes possibilities with multiple channels and attenuator like Carr, Tone King, Swart, Two Rock or even a Bartel. With this budget I would definitelly choose a point to point wired one, as your vintage Twin is. There really are dirt pedals that sound like an overdriven amp to consider (so called amp-in-a-box), like the BJFE Honey Bee OD (the original, not the Bearfoot versions). Hope it helps.
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It sounds like you have options galore. For "home playing" I"m not sure I comprehend your "home" situation.
In my home, 12 watts is too much, so when I put an attenuator on my old Princeton Reverb of 12-18 watts, the sound was glorious and blooming for distortion, but then I had the sweet sweet sound of the clean PR when needed. I now have a Princeton Reverb II in the same spot, and toy with the idea of getting another (for variety of speakers).
4 10's ??? whoah
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Boogie makes some great little combos that are fantastic for home use. The California Tweed 2:20 1x10 or 1x12 is under $2k, about 35 pounds, and still built very, very well. To me, the 12 sounds like a low power original single channel Boogie. If I were a younger man with a younger man's tolerance for schlepping plus the space for multiple amps & cabs, I'd definitely have one. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
Boogies last forever. I had an original 1x12 with EVM for decades of hard use, with zero issues. I only sold it when we downsized and I got tired of draggng a 65 pound 1x12 around. I think it's well worth the cost if you want a keeper. The 2:20 is a grand less than a CS PR. It sounds as good to me, and it's much more versatile.
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And the Boogie Studio 22! Great singing little amp. Mine didn't get real clean like a Fender, but boy oh boy was it sweet as a singing sustaining parlor partner. EL84's are real nice tubes.
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Mesa Studio 22 is weight 22 kg (may this the name comes from?). Besides it is not point to point wired, means a lot more difficult to deal with in case any problem (like hum, which is a typical issue with this model and it is very audible in home conditions). I had several Boogies in the past (Caliber 50, Studio 22, Mark II, Express 5:25, etc...) I see no reason for buy it for home use, for someone has 5k in the budget. Whether in the vintage market or among modern amplifiers, there are many better solutions for this kind of money...
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