Gibson 1957 L-5s & Byrdlands Back In Production

**Doctor Jeff** · 12-02-2023, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

The Crimson Custom shop used to be in a separate small building down the road on Elm Street. Only archtops were built there.
Obviously that operation didn’t survive the bankruptcy.

Even though many didn’t like the former CEO Henry J., he was the reason that Gibson manufactured every Gibson archtop model.
I now wish he was still the CEO.

These new guys just want 30 different Les Paul models.

I think Henry was very successful at making guitars. As I have read, the guitar operation was still making money toward the end, but other investments were sucking the company dry.

I have 2 Henrys—an ‘88 175 and ‘99 135. Both excellent.

Could one say there was a second “Golden Age” or at least a “Silver Age” of guitar making under Henry J?

**Doctor Jeff** · 12-02-2023, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Archie

If this has already been posted then ignore and apologies.

Skip to 18:50

A nice look at some L5 bracing. Looks like a CES pattern type?

Attachment 106697

An interesting video in general, not too different from the main factory tour, same machines in general, just a smaller area.

Gibson have now moved into full CNC carving for archtops and 3D-scanning (just like my set up). On a side note, it appears I've built my workshop to the standards of the Gibson Custom shop. Great minds etc..

They mention a '1957 L5' in production (although the top plate they show seems braced for two pickups). I can't see them starting with P90's.
For Gibson the money is clearly in late 50's repros, which is very important for Les Pauls but I'm not sure it translates into L5's?

Both men appear somewhat confident that this is all inline with Gibson's historic building techniques, whilst surrounded with the latest computer aided, manufacturing equipment. I think it's ok to be proud of modernity in the pursuit of perfection. Once upon a time, a chisel was far superior to using a sharpened stone and that was superior to using your teeth. The result is what's important.

Lastly one might wonder why Byrdlands are back. Well you've already made the body building an L5. You've done the majority of the work. It wouldn't make sense not too, is my guess.

Interesting times ahead.

Thanks for the info.

I’m curious how much wood you remove with the CNC—95%? 99%? Do you CNC it to rough shape then do a final carving, or sand after the CNC? (Curious what kind of sander you use as well…)

I have a small Shark CNC machine I use for decorative inlays and carvings on things like cutting boards. I’ve not used it for 3D carving yet. Even for doing small engraving work there is a steep learning curve both for the CAD program and setting up the CNC. I can only imagine how challenging your setup is!

**Ol' Fret** · 12-02-2023, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

Yes, the Green Monster. I wonder when they actually retired it?

That nice little green machine was not the monster!
The monster was the person "selecting" wood with that abominable grain orientation for a carved archtop guitar:

Gibson 1957 L-5s & Byrdlands Back In Production-gibson-we-found-g-factory-tour-1967-jpg

Gibson 1957 L-5s & Byrdlands Back In Production-gibson-we-found-g-factory-tour-1967-jpg

**Rickco** · 12-02-2023, 06:23 PM

I owned and ran a very similar operation (perhaps smaller ours was 20k ft) for most of my life . Same mix of machinery, our 1945 shaper sat not far from our cnc in ruff mill. So that said the most skilled man I saw was the stroke sander operator who was truly doing as close to "hand work" as you can get (and you can lose a hand pretty quickly) It takes many hours to develop the feel and senses to pull that off and one tiny mistep and you just flushed all the work that was done before you down the toilet. Even the master luthier has to bow to this guy. Its really what you dont see or hear about that are the things that make something of truly great quality. I especially liked the bit about not being "strapped in" because of current osha regs. So the next time you strum your beautifully shaped archtop play one for stroke sander operator who nobody ever thanks or knows about. (cant believe i snuck this into a guitar conversation......)

**ccroft** · 12-02-2023, 07:48 PM

Having flushed some work down the toilet with the stroke sander I, for one, certainly can appreciate that skill. And I was just doing flat veneer work! Watching that guy sanding the curves on a fine archtop body gave me the willies.

**Archie** · 12-03-2023, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

Thanks for the info.

I’m curious how much wood you remove with the CNC—95%? 99%? Do you CNC it to rough shape then do a final carving, or sand after the CNC? (Curious what kind of sander you use as well…)

I have a small Shark CNC machine I use for decorative inlays and carvings on things like cutting boards. I’ve not used it for 3D carving yet. Even for doing small engraving work there is a steep learning curve both for the CAD program and setting up the CNC. I can only imagine how challenging your setup is!

Hey DJ.

Wood Removal: it depends on what process you use in CAM. You can use a roughing strategy, go in there with a a big tool and rough out most of the wood. Once that is done you can then go in with a ball nose and get down to 99.5% of
wood remaining (stock to leave) and then do a final light smoothing pass.
With this technique you can actually get very close to a finished surface. If you let the machine spend more time, you can get a better finish. If you have sharp bits, you’ll get a better finish. If you make your finish pass remove as little as wood possible, you’ll get a better finish. And by that I mean a light sanding and done. No need for a special sanding machine.

I’m not sure about this stroke sander. Seems to me to be required because their cnc operation is not doing anything close to a ‘smoothing pass’ in CAM. I would also add that it seems to defeat the point of cnc operation, given that all the stroke sander is doing, is unevenly removing stock and potentially ruining the work.
A stroke sander is for doing flat work and isn’t designed for arched or curved shapes.
I might be wrong but yeh… not sure why they feel the need to use that.
Perhaps it’s quicker than letting the cnc run for another hour to get the better finish?
I would not say it’s an advancement. If anything as I said before, it would add unevenness and inconsistencies into the CAD’s perfect design.
But it looks fancy!

The sander I use is a wide belt sander for the final thicknessing and sanding of veneers before gluing and vacuum forming into laminate plates. I’ve been doing tons of r&d here, getting the bandsaw and veneer cutting right. I’ve made a special sliding carriage for the bandsaw and hopefully will get the veneer process licked by the end of next week.
I’m filming it all and will do a video. I just haven’t found time to edit the footage.

Oh and I use Fusion 360

Regarding your CNC, the weaker it is the more backlash you get and this can also create a poor finish. That’s why I went for the strongest biggest (small) cnc you can get. The accuracy is often in the frame so you need to go slower, take less wood off but you can still get a great finish. Just as good as Gibson!

**ccroft** · 12-03-2023, 03:07 PM

Hi Achie! I went back in to take a close look at what that guy is actually doing with the stroke sander. He's not sanding any wood. He's flushing up and finishing the multiple layers of binding on what looks like a Byrdland body.

At slow speed and zoomed in you can see he's sanding the rough bindings. Looks like it goes directly from the rubber bands to the stroke. This is likely quicker than doing a flushing operation and then sanding. One operation & workstation VS two. Stroke sander can be quite aggressive, or not so much depending on what you want from it at the moment.

This replaces the ol' hand scraper.

Gibby's been refining and refining their operation for a very long time, and set up several shops over the decades. I'd say that if we see them doing something funny, there's probably a very good reason for it :-)

Interesting to me is that wadded up face-towel he uses. We used to use a hand held platen with D-handle on it in the same sort of way, instead of the usual platen on guide bar with the long bar handle. We were mostly removing veneer tape and this allowed us to adjust aggressiveness where there were a couple of overlapping layers VS areas of no tape. It takes some time to get the feel, and I buggered up a walnut burl table-top learning it. That was an expensive piece: burl is small and there were a lot of joints to make... again.

Apologies to the forum for turning this into a woodworking thread, but I believe there's several of us who've worked in the trade and played jazz guitar. Besides, most who play archtops are interested in how they come to be.

**Rickco** · 12-03-2023, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Archie

Hey DJ.

Wood Removal: it depends on what process you use in CAM. You can use a roughing strategy, go in there with a a big tool and rough out most of the wood. Once that is done you can then go in with a ball nose and get down to 99.5% of
wood remaining (stock to leave) and then do a final light smoothing pass.
With this technique you can actually get very close to a finished surface. If you let the machine spend more time, you can get a better finish. If you have sharp bits, you’ll get a better finish. If you make your finish pass remove as little as wood possible, you’ll get a better finish. And by that I mean a light sanding and done. No need for a special sanding machine.

I’m not sure about this stroke sander. Seems to me to be required because their cnc operation is not doing anything close to a ‘smoothing pass’ in CAM. I would also add that it seems to defeat the point of cnc operation, given that all the stroke sander is doing, is unevenly removing stock and potentially ruining the work.
A stroke sander is for doing flat work and isn’t designed for arched or curved shapes.
I might be wrong but yeh… not sure why they feel the need to use that.
Perhaps it’s quicker than letting the cnc run for another hour to get the better finish?
I would not say it’s an advancement. If anything as I said before, it would add unevenness and inconsistencies into the CAD’s perfect design.
But it looks fancy!

The sander I use is a wide belt sander for the final thicknessing and sanding of veneers before gluing and vacuum forming into laminate plates. I’ve been doing tons of r&d here, getting the bandsaw and veneer cutting right. I’ve made a special sliding carriage for the bandsaw and hopefully will get the veneer process licked by the end of next week.
I’m filming it all and will do a video. I just haven’t found time to edit the footage.

Oh and I use Fusion 360

Regarding your CNC, the weaker it is the more backlash you get and this can also create a poor finish. That’s why I went for the strongest biggest (small) cnc you can get. The accuracy is often in the frame so you need to go slower, take less wood off but you can still get a great finish. Just as good as Gibson!

The point about the stroke sander is that he was flushing the binding, you try that on a part with a curved shape. So you run a production shop with a cnc and use a ball cutter for smoothing arched parts? My hats off to you.

**Archie** · 12-03-2023, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by ccroft

Hi Achie! I went back in to take a close look at what that guy is actually doing with the stroke sander. He's not sanding any wood. He's flushing up and finishing the multiple layers of binding on what looks like a Byrdland body.

At slow speed and zoomed in you can see he's sanding the rough bindings. Looks like it goes directly from the rubber bands to the stroke. This is likely quicker than doing a flushing operation and then sanding. One operation & workstation VS two. Stroke sander can be quite aggressive, or not so much depending on what you want from it at the moment.

This replaces the ol' hand scraper.

Gibby's been refining and refining their operation for a very long time, and set up several shops over the decades. I'd say that if we see them doing something funny, there's probably a very good reason for it :-)

Interesting to me is that wadded up face-towel he uses. We used to use a hand held platen with D-handle on it in the same sort of way, instead of the usual platen on guide bar with the long bar handle. We were mostly removing veneer tape and this allowed us to adjust aggressiveness where there were a couple of overlapping layers VS areas of no tape. It takes some time to get the feel, and I buggered up a walnut burl table-top learning it. That was an expensive piece: burl is small and there were a lot of joints to make... again.

Apologies to the forum for turning this into a woodworking thread, but I believe there's several of us who've worked in the trade and played jazz guitar. Besides, most who play archtops are interested in how they come to be.

Interesting!
I’ve seen them use it before on Les Pauls and it looked to me like they were using it to do final sanding of the top as the operator moves the bunched up cloth? Over the entire surface of the guitar body.
Having a look at this video from last year, the foreman claims it’s for doing as you said and removing tool marks from CNC carving.

skip to 20:45

You’re right about a companies ability to learn through trial and error but it’s not a given.
Gibson were having huge problems with their finishing only a decade or so ago after being in manufacturing for nearly 100 years.
Apparently the finish consultant would go in and train staff only for their to be a high turn over in that department and for it all to go to sh*t again.
Of course finding a machine and process that works with fewer variables like sanding vs finish spraying, means they’re not great comparisons.

**Rickco** · 12-03-2023, 05:33 PM

Anyone interested in a nice old stroke sanding machine Ill make ya a hell of a deal....

**Archie** · 12-03-2023, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Rickco

The point about the stroke sander is that he was flushing the binding, you try that on a part with a curved shape. So you run a production shop with a cnc and use a ball cutter for smoothing arched parts? My hats off to you.

Not as such.

I’m making forma’s at the moment for laminate production. I scan a top or back plate, convert it into a solid in CAD, then machine it on my CNC machine.
I can get a finished surface doing so but the operation takes some time.
If I were to be in production this would be a potential bottleneck, unless one buys more cnc’s or a stroke sander. But since my CNC was £5k and a stroke sander is nearer £10k, plus the Gibson one looks pretty modified, or custom made, it would probably be better for me to buy another CNC.

That said the idea of using this sander to smooth out binding seems interesting. I can still see a a fair amount of issues with it.

I’ve tried to model my production line on ones similar to Collings and others, whilst making it up as I go along.
I had thought of adding laser cutting and will do for marquetry, until I discovered that Martin also use lasers
Until very recently, I’ve not been paying attention to what Gibson do at all. To be honest, Gibson are one of the reasons I got into this.
I admire the work of Collings and other high level manufacturers; Benedetto, etc… I’m not a fan of Gibsons quality over all and I’ve made that clear over the years, so I’ll leave it there

I do believe there has been good examples over the last 40 years and I understand and respect the pride and happiness they bring people. I’ve had some great Gibson’s but turned away far more than I’ve bought.

You could say I decided to put my money where my mouth is lol

**Doctor Jeff** · 12-03-2023, 06:57 PM

I’ve never seen a stroke sander in person. I will say the guy running that looks like a virtuoso of the machine. I can see how they are using it. Sanding is definitely an art form, however it’s carried out.

The machine was made in Bristol, TN, the birthplace of country music and where I was conceived (can I say that on a public forum?). Mom and Dad worked for Raytheon. Mom’s stepdad was CEO there. I was there for the Roots and Rhythm Revival festival in September. Great little town.