Funny how some of the cheapest guitars can have some of the nicesest finishes..

[Woody Sound]

[sgosnell]

Polyurethane is relatively easy and safe to apply, and looks fine if done properly. People who purchase high-end archtop guitars tend to be traditionalists, and won't accept newer technology.

[Sam Sherry]

Funny how some of the cheapest guitars can have some of the nicest finishes.

Gorgeous veneer. Paper thin.
Eye-candy. And that's a compliment, not an insult.

Polyurethane is relatively easy and safe to apply

Poly is pretty toxic while wet but inert once cured.
Poly is flammable but nitro is actually explosive.
(If you want to support workers by using a truly safe finish the answer is shellac. Unfortunately for the buyer it is extremely labor-intensive.)

and looks fine if done properly

It is much more damage- and wear-resistant than nitro.
Most gigging players will testify that poly is beer-proof and less likely to craze on outdoor stages

People who purchase high-end archtop guitars tend to be traditionalists, and won't accept newer technology.

No dispute here.
Also, for some buyers a luxury instrument is a status symbol.

[sgosnell]

Pretty much any compound used for finishes is toxic to some degree while wet. It's just a matter of degree, and how much it mists into the air. Nitrocellulose in the lungs is not a good thing. The only property of nitro that is better than poly, that I can think of, is that it can be repaired by respraying, while poly can't. I think Tru-Oil is a safer finish, easier to apply and easier to repair if necessary, but it doesn't seem to be used very much, for some reason, probably tradition as much as any other. I like it.

[RJVB]

Gorgeous veneer. Paper thin.

You know that for certain because you know it is actually paper?

I've got a couple of interior blinds made of some cheap kind of board also used for fancy looking wine gift boxes. You know that kind, that looks like it's thin spruce. The spruce "effect" is thick and realistic enough to get a bit of chatoyance under nitro or oil finish but sand a bit too far and you realise that underneath its cheap cigarbox ply or even some kind of cardbox (that was from an actual wine gift box).

Re "nicesest finishes" on cheap guitars: it's probably easier (and thus cheaper) to get a nice *thick* PU finish on a guitar that isn't going to sound great anyway (or isn't meant to suggest that it's an acoustic). QED?

EDIT: I actually like it when you can see a "maker's mark" in the finish. Not so much on the sides, though; I prefer those smooth and shiny so suction cups stick

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Polyurethane is relatively easy and safe to apply, and looks fine if done properly. People who purchase high-end archtop guitars tend to be traditionalists, and won't accept newer technology.

Eastman switched to thin water based poly (which they call TrueTone) in 2021. They still offer a few guitars in "antique varnish" (which they do not call TrueTone), but I'm not sure what it is. My 810CE7 was made before 2021 and is finished with a French polish. But my Jazz Elite was made near the end of 2021 and is probably TrueTone. I don't think the switch has affected the tone or beauty of their guitars. If a thin finish of water based poly is more durable and better for us and the planet, I'm all for it.

On the other hand, it's nice to know I could use the flat back of my Epi LP as a cheese board if the need arose. The poly is so thick it could probably be played with no wood inside.

[sgosnell]

"Paper thin" does not mean made of paper, it just refers to the thickness of something.

[John A.]

Pretty much any compound used for finishes is toxic to some degree while wet. It's just a matter of degree, and how much it mists into the air. Nitrocellulose in the lungs is not a good thing. The only property of nitro that is better than poly, that I can think of, is that it can be repaired by respraying, while poly can't. I think Tru-Oil is a safer finish, easier to apply and easier to repair if necessary, but it doesn't seem to be used very much, for some reason, probably tradition as much as any other. I like it.

I think a lot of the appeal of nitro is that it ages poorly. Yellowing and checking of the clear coat and fading of the color coats are markers of age and authenticity (even if easily faked), which is valued by the market.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Yellowing and checking of the clear coat and fading of the color coats are markers of age and authenticity (even if easily faked), which is valued by the market.

…but not by me. I love the patina of use and the color changes of an aging finish. But checking has no appeal at all to me.

[Doctor Jeff]

I was reading something somewhere (don’t you hate it when you can’t remember where??) about collectors/buyers—a lot of them want their beautiful item to remain beautiful for more than a decade, i.e., no checking, patina, etc.

I don’t know a lot of high-end or boutique guitars that are made with poly, but I guarantee my Gretsch and Cordoba will look better in 20 years than a Gibson with nitro.

I just refinished a Tele body. I was going to nitro it, but that stuff is EXPENSIVE (>$150 for one guitar). Went with wipe-on poly, which is fine for a student guitar and cost about $30.

[Doctor Jeff]

…but not by me. I love the patina of use and the color changes of an aging finish. But checking has no appeal at all to me.

My 175 is definitely a player’s guitar. At 35 years old, there’s some wear of the finish, a hint of checking, and the binding around the fingerboard has tiny cracks where the frets are.

But that’s fine for a vintage guitar. Doesn’t affect playability one bit.

That’s what I tell the ladies when they ask my age—the guitar’s old, but plays so sweet!

[RJVB]

I don't think the switch has affected the tone or beauty of their guitars.

My Cabaret has that finish. I have never seen an Eastman with another finish but it's nice enough (except where it left "crusts" around the soundhole). They do indeed claim that blind listening tests didn't reveal any preference between the old and new finishes.

"Paper thin" does not mean made of paper, it just refers to the thickness of something.

Oh really, you mean it's not just an americanism that I hadn't encountered yet?
Seriously, the veneer on many (budget) e-guitars is apparently paper or even printed (and why not...) so I don't think my question was out of place.

[John A.]

My 175 is definitely a player’s guitar. At 35 years old, there’s some wear of the finish, a hint of checking, and the binding around the fingerboard has tiny cracks where the frets are.

But that’s fine for a vintage guitar. Doesn’t affect playability one bit.

That’s what I tell the ladies when they ask my age—the guitar’s old, but plays so sweet!

From what I've observed, authenticity/originality are important to collectors. Aging and yellowing are generally seen as indicators of that; pristine condition is sometimes seen by some as evidence of re-spray, restoration, "too good to be true", etc. Anyway, I don't know much about which high end builders use what finish methods (and am under the impression that most use nitro). But I do know that Dana Bourgeois uses catalyzed polyurethane finishes helped Eastman convert to that from nitro. I believe Taylor uses polyester on all their guitars.

[Zigracer]

I have several guitars that are poly finished and several that are finished in lacquer. Both are fine with me. However as a repair guy, lacquer is sooo much easier to work with to restore some damage to look like new or close to it. I have been able to repair broken headstocks on lacquer guitars and make the repair almost impossible to see. I have a poly finished guitar on the bench right now that has a broken headstock, bit I'm not all that optimistic that I can make that one invisible. There are some great cyanoacrylate products available, but I find them a little harder to work with than lacquer which blends into itself. Just my 2 cents.

[Danny W.]

[QUOTE=Doctor Jeff;1299374

I don’t know a lot of high-end or boutique guitars that are made with poly, but I guarantee my Gretsch and Cordoba will look better in 20 years than a Gibson with nitro.
[/QUOTE]

Really? Twenty-year-old Gibson, daily player, hasn't spent a minute in its case since I bought it new, photos taken today:







The same age guitars I gig with have a few scars where I whacked them against my music stand, but don't really show any more age.

Danny W.

[Gitterbug]

I believe that today's nitro is different from what was used 50-60 years ago. Some softening agent has been added to retard the drying and shrinking that contributes to cracking. Even perfume. I used a lot of cellulose dope in my 20+ aeromodeling years on tissue and silk covered structures. The first coats were heavily thinned, and just a few drops of castor oil was added to the final coat to prevent crackling. Too much, and the surface remained sticky. The working conditions in our club room weren't exactly to today's safety norms.

Now where was I? Ah, does anybody know what Martin is using? Or Taylor? Or Breedlove? At some point, UV cured varnishes seemed to gain ground. I'm asking because I don't think that nitro finish factors in - at least positively - regarding the future value of today's high-end flattops.

My first guitar, an East German Migma from ca. 1958, had a shellac finish. Full of scratches in no time at all. Today I'm using okoumé plywood in some of my cabs. An open-pore wood like mahogany, it needs a nitro primer before any water-borne stuff (stain or paint) can be applied. I wonder if anyone has tried/uses modern water-borne floor varnishes on guitars as the final, protective layer. I have only good things to say about them.

[Flat]

Funny how some of the cheapest guitars can have some of the nicest finishes.

Reminds me of some people I've known.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

the binding around the fingerboard has tiny cracks where the frets are.

I think that lines and breaks in binding directly over fret ends are often a sign of dehydration, not age. Fret sprout results from slight shrinkage of the wood as it loses some moisture content. The fret tang extends as far toward the edge of the board as the visible end or further, depending on how the fingerboard is designed and bound. So any loss of volume in the wood will pull the binding in with it and cause pressure from the end of the tang against the inside of the binding.



I’ve had this only once, on a LP Custom that I bought new in 1973. The neck binding actually separated from the wood for about 2” in one place on the treble side of the board. I kept it in the case, but we had no humidification in our apartment (with forced air heating). Within about 3 years, I started to feel the seam between the binding and the neck where it eventually separated. My dealer told me it was “normal” - but it was clearly not.

I also suspect that older binding gets a bit brittle over time. So if a fret tang end pushes out against it, it will split if the bond between binding and wood is still strong. Thinner binding is also probably more likely to crack from this than thicker binding.

Our resident luthiers can shed more light on this. If I’m wrong, please correct me. It’s logical, but it may not be right.

[sgosnell]

Speaking of high-end guitars, FWIW, Ken Parker uses epoxy as a base, and linseed oil as a top/final coat. I can't remember offhand everything in between, because I haven't watched the 6 (!) videos he has on finishing for some time. My preference for oil finishes predates seeing these by many years, and I've never used epoxy. Getting the ultra-thin coat he uses is a lot of work. Many coats of linseed oil produces a very durable finish. Once upon a time the US Army had wooden stocks on M1 and M14 rifles, with linseed oil as a finish, and they survived all sorts of insult from mud, rain, whatever, with usually no damage. Time in the arms room reapplying linseed oil to the wood was a regular thing. It's still used by civilians with wooden gunstocks.

[pauln]

Polyurethane is fairly indestructible and can look good indefinitely with care and an occasional smoothing. About every six months during a deep cleaning and string change I do a smoothing like this:

- remove strings
- clean the finger board
- clean the guitar body and pick guard, everything else
- apply a thin coat of Meguiar's PlastX to poly
- wait about two minutes
- rub it gently with a dry paper towel
- when the feeling changes from rub to slick I move to another area until everywhere feels slick
- use wet progressing to damp paper towels to very gently remove residue until clean

If you try this, make certain your finish is polyurethane.

PlastX is formulated to restore the plastic headlight covers on modern vehicles. The surface of these covers turn yellow with UV exposure and become micro-scratched from driving through the air.

Poly finish guitars are also subject to UV and micro-scratching from normal handling. PlastX is a very slow mild poly solvent that will dissolve a microscopic outer layer of the finish. It takes about two minutes for it to dissolve enough that rubbing it will rather suddenly feel slick - that's all you want to do is rub it a little more after it turns slick, and then move on... you should be done in another minute or two, then clean it all up. If you do the back side, do that separately so you have time. It is important to clean it all off. Once it's all off, let any moisture dry for a few minutes and then polish it up any way you want. The result is a mirror flat surface and restoration of color with removal of the yellowed poly.

My 35 year old Strat

[Woody Sound]

OP here. FWIW, I was referring to the pretty spalted pattern and burst color, not the actual finish substance.

[RJVB]

PlastX is formulated to restore the plastic headlight covers on modern vehicles. The surface of these covers turn yellow with UV exposure and become micro-scratched from driving through the air.

Not to take off to the race tracks but just how modern? I don't think I've seen it on cars made after 2005 or so - my 2009 certainly doesn't have it and it hasn't spent much time out of the sun in the 10 years I've owned it. (I wonder if the susceptible material wasn't acrylate, same sort of stuff used to make blenders.)

[Gitterbug]

Looks like spalted maple. I had a thinline Ibanez with gorgeous patterns, even a satanistic "M" (my first name initial) on the back side. But boy, did that guitar smell!

The photo contains an optical illusion. Look at the frets and you think that the spaces with no inlays are wider than the adjacent ones. If they are, it's a cheapo indeed.

Seriously, I find less and less justification for the up to 10X price differential between US made and Asian guitars (often by the same parent companies.) It's not just about labor cost; Asian factories are newer and equipped with modern precision machinery. Stuck in the middle, European industrial manufacturers have by and large vanished.

[Doctor Jeff]

Really? Twenty-year-old Gibson, daily player, hasn't spent a minute in its case since I bought it new, photos taken today:







The same age guitars I gig with have a few scars where I whacked them against my music stand, but don't really show any more age.

Danny W.

Well I can’t argue with that—lovely guitar!

[Danny W.]

Well I can’t argue with that—lovely guitar!

Thank you, it is. Plays and sounds great too.

Danny W.