Gretsch vs Gibson volume/tone controls

[Doctor Jeff]

This is a bit of an observation and a question.

The observation is that the lack of tone controls on the Gretsch G6117T-HT (2013 6117 reissue) is not a big problem at all. As you probably know, there is a master volume control, individual volume controls for the neck and bridge pickup, and 2 switches--one for either or both humbuckers (HiLo-trons) and one for neutral, bass boost, and treble bleed.

To my ears turning down the volume on the pickup really rolls off the treble, but not really noticeable with the master volume. Put another way, pickup volume at 50% and MV at 100% is a lot darker/less trebly than PUV at 100% and MV at 50%.

So...between the "mud switch" (treble bleed) and adjusting the volumes at the pickup one can get a wide variety of tones, including that iconic dark smoky jazz tone. (With a bit of thunk to my ear as well.)

Now for Gibson--I have been reading about 50's vs "modern" wiring. I have an '88 175 with Shaw pickups, and I don't know how it's wired. But I don't notice a huge amount of tone rolloff with the volume. So maybe this is 50's wiring?

I am just happy that I can get a nice range of tones with either setup. Any thoughts? Anyone know how 80's 175s were wired?

[hotpepper01]

Strange. I own both several Gretsches and several Gibsons. The Gretsches have treble bleed in the master volume. Meaning there is very little treble loss when the master volume is reduced. That comes in handy for rythm/solo switches. Gibsons on the other hand do not have that. At least, not my present Gibsons. Nor did my 1978 Gibson 175. The feature of the treble bleed on the master volume is one of the things I appreciate in the Gretsch and feel the lack thereoff in the Gibsons.

[Doctor Jeff]

OK my bad. I misused the term "treble bleed" and edited my post above so as not to create confusion. I think you are correct that the Gretsch must have a treble bleed with the master volume, though the schemata I have seen don't necessarily show that.

I am still not clear how the 175 is wired--my understanding is that 50's wiring (cap between the volume pots) would preserve the treble with decreasing volume, which I think is the case. I don't know if that's how they were wired in 1988.

[icr]

Can you see the pots with a dental mirror? Should be able to see the wiring. Plus, someone may have put a capacitor on the volume control too. The Gibson Howard Roberts Fusion III even came from the factory with the capacitor on the volume pot (too avoid treble rolloff when turning the volume down).

[bluejaybill]

This is a bit of an observation and a question.

The observation is that the lack of tone controls on the Gretsch G6117T-HT (2013 6117 reissue) is not a big problem at all. As you probably know, there is a master volume control, individual volume controls for the neck and bridge pickup, and 2 switches--one for either or both humbuckers (HiLo-trons) and one for neutral, bass boost, and treble bleed.

To my ears turning down the volume on the pickup really rolls off the treble, but not really noticeable with the master volume. Put another way, pickup volume at 50% and MV at 100% is a lot darker/less trebly than PUV at 100% and MV at 50%.

So...between the "mud switch" (treble bleed) and adjusting the volumes at the pickup one can get a wide variety of tones, including that iconic dark smoky jazz tone. (With a bit of thunk to my ear as well.)

Now for Gibson--I have been reading about 50's vs "modern" wiring. I have an '88 175 with Shaw pickups, and I don't know how it's wired. But I don't notice a huge amount of tone rolloff with the volume. So maybe this is 50's wiring?

I am just happy that I can get a nice range of tones with either setup. Any thoughts? Anyone know how 80's 175s were wired?

If it was '50's wiring, the tone should remain the same when you turn down the volume, and the volume should go down when you turn down the tone.

[ombudsman]

One detail re the above, the tone switch positions are bypass, light treble rolloff, and much bigger treble rolloff.
It's simple to change either cap so that you can duplicate your favorite two tone knob positions.

[Zigracer]

With the Gretsch guitars, it depends on the year if it has a treble bleed, i.e. capacitor or capacitor and resistor on the master volume pot. I have several Gretsches and a few Gibsons. You can find your way to your desired tone with any of the setups, it's just that the route to get there might be a little different.

[Doctor Jeff]

One detail re the above, the tone switch positions are bypass, light treble rolloff, and much bigger treble rolloff.
It's simple to change either cap so that you can duplicate your favorite two tone knob positions.

You may be right, but Gretsch describes it thus: "The rear position emphasizes bass, the middle is neutral and the front offers a slight high-frequency roll-off."

I like the one with the big treble rolloff for playing what I play.

[ombudsman]

"emphasizes" is a fair way to describe it I would say. The distinction being it doesn't boost bass, which would require active components either in or just after an EQ circuit.

[ruger9]

Gretsch only started putting "treble bleeds" (high pass filters) on their master volumes in the last several years. I know because it was a BIG DEAL to everyone on Gretsch-Talk forum lol

[nopedals]

I recently purchased a 1950s Gretsch Streamliner. It has single volume and tone controls, and a single dynasonic neck pickup. The tone control is flat if dialed halfway up. Turn it up and it rolls the bass off, turn it down and it rolls off the treble. The effect is similar to the switch described above but with a knob so the tone change is very linear. It is by far my favorite guitar tone circuit.

I'm guessing that most potential buyers just turned it all the way up, expecting to get mix of treble and bass but getting a treble sound like a bridge pickup instead, and moved on not knowing that all the rich tones require rolling the tone control back a bit, and that that hurt sales. These guitars were only manufactured 1955-1957 (the current reissues are completely different guitars), and I don't know of any other guitar that has that tone circuit.

The guitars themselves resemble P90 ES-175s, but the body is not as deep (much cheaper, too). They have a bad reputation for neck joins and binding rot. I got lucky and found one with a recent neck reset and no binding rot.

[LesB3]

I recently purchased a 1950s Gretsch Streamliner. It has single volume and tone controls, and a single dynasonic neck pickup. The tone control is flat if dialed halfway up. Turn it up and it rolls the bass off, turn it down and it rolls off the treble. The effect is similar to the switch described above but with a knob so the tone change is very linear. It is by far my favorite guitar tone circuit.

Those guitars have stacked pots - as you said, the middle position is "neutral"