Love my Epiphone ES-175 Premium, but...

[Christian Miller]

1. Can you get that sound from a 335 by using a graphic or parametric equalizer? I have a Boss GE-7 and it's fabulous. I can get a miriad of sounds with it.

I doubt it. It’s more an attack/decay characteristic than an EQ thing. The thunk of a Gibson laminate is not an EQ, it’s about transients and fast decay. Some 175s have more sustain and less think, but they all seem to have a bit. Even Kreisberg’s…

Fwiw I talk about it in this video. Albeit the 175 has flats on at this point and the 335 rounds so it’s not a perfect comparison.

[John A.]

1. Can you get that sound from a 335 by using a graphic or parametric equalizer? I have a Boss GE-7 and it's fabulous. I can get a miriad of sounds with it.

Kind of but not really? I mean you can find overlap between pretty much any two guitars, depending on how you play, set -up, settings etc., and depending on how you hear stuff. But there are also areas that don't overlap, plus the basic envelope (attack->sustain-delay>) of hollow-bodies and semi-hollows are different. So it depends on what you're looking for. There's particular thing in the attack and midrange of Gibson laminate, set pickup archtops that you hear markedly from certain players (notably, Joe Pass, Tal Farlow, Herb Ells, early Jim Hall). It's not the only sound or the best sound (consider Wes, KB, Benson, Martino, etc.), but it's a good one that some people obsess over. If you want that, and you don't want to spend Gibson bucks, it can be a rabbit hole (as evidenced by endless threads here).

Overall I think the idea of "can I make this guitar sound like that guitar?" is kind of unproductive. I just try to find a sound in whatever guitar I'm playing that I like and fits the music and feels right (in a hard to explain, subjective way)

2. Could the OP simply hang onto it for investment reasons? He could possibly recover his costs. I looked at Long & McQuade's website and it says this guitar is a "Limited Edition" and is no longer available. (new)

Cheers
Avery Roberts

The Epi Premium has been out of production for several years now (5? 6?), and prices haven't really moved up (taking a quick look at reverb, people are asking about what they cost new, which means they're selling for less, so I'd guess not. Plus, in general, modifications detract from the value of guitars. But who knows? Markets are fickle, and maybe in 20 years this will be a collector's item, warts and all. Personally, I have neither the closet space nor the spare cash to hang onto guitars for decades for speculative reasons, but others are free to do as they please.

[John A.]

So a solution for him (assuming that neck thickness is the problem) is some wood on the underside of the neck to bring it to the same thickness as his 335. He could try it himself initially tacking some thin strips of wood (balsa wood from a model plane hobby shop) with a few dabs of water-soluble glue or even with some 3M masking tape. And if that then solves his problem, he can then hire a luthier to glue some strips of mahogany onto the neck and sand it in to blend with the neck. Or do it himself.

Think about the complex, curved shape of a guitar neck. Now imagine trying to glue flat pieces to that, filling in the gaps, re-shaping, and re-finishing it to achieve a playable profile and surface. I can't see that working very well, and to the extent that a skilled luthier could make it work it would cost a fortune. This is just not something that people do with guitars, except maybe as eccentric science projects.

Alternatively he could have the luthier build him a custom instrument that fits his hands and body.

That's always an option. There are some China-based builders who do custom builds at decent prices. Several people here have done that and posted about their experienced. Or you could find an existing guitar with a chunkier neck. There are plenty of fish in the sea.

[lawson-stone]

Mr. Lawson-Stone, thank you for your reply and your astute observations. I think you hit the nail on the head. It has to be the neck thickness. It's the only variable, everything else is the same.

The chord the OP is trying to play ( XX7988) is a somewhat tricky one. The first joint (the one nearest to the tip) on the middle finger almost has to be bent at a slight negative angle to bar the two upper strings. And that joint doesn't allow that negative angle. If the neck is slimmer, then the third joint (the knuckle) is raised higher above the fingerboard thereby requiring an increased negative angle from the first joint, which it can't do. And that's his complaint. He can't get that last part of his middle finger to lay flat on those 2 upper strings.

So a solution for him (assuming that neck thickness is the problem) is some wood on the underside of the neck to bring it to the same thickness as his 335. He could try it himself initially tacking some thin strips of wood (balsa wood from a model plane hobby shop) with a few dabs of water-soluble glue or even with some 3M masking tape. And if that then solves his problem, he can then hire a luthier to glue some strips of mahogany onto the neck and sand it in to blend with the neck. Or do it himself.

Alternatively he could have the luthier build him a custom instrument that fits his hands and body.


Cheers
Avery Roberts

I don't play that Am7 (XX7988) with a bar. I do the fingering index-pinky-middle-ring. I can hit that faster and more easily than with a bar. And I actually think the 335 neck is slimmer than the 175. I used to have an Epiphone Sheraton and I recall the neck being slimmer, too slim for my comfort actually which is rare. I usually adapt okay to a range of neck shapes. I'm thinking the OP will get more value out of practising on the guitar, getting used to it, maybe shifting his technique a bit to something more efficient, rather than try to find the perfect-fit guitar. I have found in 60 years of guitar playing that what I prefer has changed quite a bit over the years, and even now on my rack at home is a classical with a wide-flat fingerboard, a Martin D28 acoustic, an L5ces copy that has an extra chunky neck, and an Epiphone Broadway. I make a point of playing them all over the course of a week and it keeps me from being unable to play well on any one of them.

[dmorash]

Pretty interesting topic. I feel cramped on ES 175 too. I don't consider myself to have overly giant hands or anything but I just can't get consistently comfortable even over time. I swore off of 24.75 inch scale guitars because of this. It's a shame because so many classic jazz guitars are 24.75 scale and you have to exclude them all if you can't get comfortable with the neck.

A couple of years ago I acquired an Eastman 486 (335 style guitar which 24.75 scale) . The reason it interested me was it had a wider nut width and I thought that might be some kind of acceptable trade off. I ended up having to refret most of it and re cut the nut because of the way that the frets were sloped the high e string was pulling off the edge of the frets at times but... It did end up being a comfortable guitar for me which I regularly use. The Eastmans can be bright sounding but for me I value playability and feel and can work with the brightness since I can adjust the tone somewhat but not the neck dimensions.

I wish there were more options for 335, les paul and 175's with longer scale lengths and /or slightly wider nut width.

[John A.]

Not as difficult as it might appear. Wood in thin strips like veneer is quite pliable, almost like paper. You can cut it with scissors. I've used the technique when a kid when I was building model airplanes for a hobby. Those fuselages had complex aerodynamic curves.



The most challenging part would be fairing into the headstock and the heel. And you are right, to do it professionally would be quite expensive. Also it would probably look awful and definitely devalue the instrument.

Try it on your guitar with some paper (or veneer if you've got it) and show us how it works out.

[bluejaybill]

I don't play that Am7 (XX7988) with a bar. I do the fingering index-pinky-middle-ring. I can hit that faster and more easily than with a bar. And I actually think the 335 neck is slimmer than the 175. I used to have an Epiphone Sheraton and I recall the neck being slimmer, too slim for my comfort actually which is rare. I usually adapt okay to a range of neck shapes. I'm thinking the OP will get more value out of practising on the guitar, getting used to it, maybe shifting his technique a bit to something more efficient, rather than try to find the perfect-fit guitar. I have found in 60 years of guitar playing that what I prefer has changed quite a bit over the years, and even now on my rack at home is a classical with a wide-flat fingerboard, a Martin D28 acoustic, an L5ces copy that has an extra chunky neck, and an Epiphone Broadway. I make a point of playing them all over the course of a week and it keeps me from being unable to play well on any one of them.

That fingering is fine but then you can't do the sus4 to minor third move which is very common on that chord shape. So horses for courses as is often said here!

Regarding neck shapes, I consider myself to be pretty adaptable to different shapes, but the one thing I have trouble with is shallow necks front to back. Most of mine are relatively full C shape or very mild V. But narrow ones cause my hands to cramp up, and I was wondering if the OP was referring to this problem.

I have gotten rid of several really nice guitars otherwise due to this issue, including a great '57 strat and a '60 ES345. I have a '50's D28 that is borderline on this issue as well. The others I have vary quite a bit, but none are what I'd call thin. My Campellone I ordered not too fat, not too thin, and it is perfect. Borys neck as well. The two are very similar.

[2bornot2bop]

Thanks everyone, really appreciate all the help.

I measured both scale lengths - 12 3/8 from the bottom of the nut to the 2nd fret at 12 on both. This is somewhat interesting. I have a more difficult time getting my fingers into frets after 7 of the Epi than I do the Gibson. For example, I have no problem with an Amin7 at 7 with the Gibson but I can't get my fingers flat or narrow enough on the Epi to have it ring correctly. Very frustrating and confusing.

After reading all your replies, I think I'm wrestling with string spacing and neck shape. I have very reputable shops near me but I don't think it's really worth investing in a new nut if it's a neck issue. Which brings me to the neck....the Epi is much closer to a thin, flat D and the 335 is a thick C to thick D. FWIW, guitar size isn't an issue. I'm an XL human so lower bout size and thickness isn't really an issue. In fact, I find the thicker Epi more comfortable than the thinner 335.

Thanks again, everyone's collective wisdom is greatly appreciated.

Should you ever desire to sell the Premium please let me know. Thx!

[Prof Silverhair]

Hey all,

Thanks for all the assistance and suggestions. The Epi 175 just doesn't feel right to me, I'm certain this is due to the slinky Epi neck. Sad because they make some attractive hollow options. Through all this, I've figured out how to make my 335 sound pretty indistinguishable from the full hollow Epi. I may just end up parting ways the 175 Premium and move it along to someone who will love it and play it. It's way too good a guitar to hang on my wall.

If nothing else this has just re-affirmed my love affair with the 335. It's not perfect, super clean, or particularly collectible but it's my main squeeze and keeps doing what I ask it to do.

[Prof Silverhair]

I tried about a dozen when I found my 335 on Craigslist. Drove over an hour hoping it would be 'the one'. It was one of those times I knew it was the right guitar without even plugging it in. Got it home and it sounded better than it felt. Opened it up to find upgraded wiring and hand wound Fralin PAF's. It was just meant to be.

All that, I'll still keep chasing that full, woody, warm thunk of a 'jazz guitar'. The adventure continues.

I'm glad to hear that you've got it worked out. When you bought that 335 you got a guitar that's just about as good as it gets. It's very versatile. From acid hard rock to country to blues to pop to the smoothest jazz, it can do it all. I've heard it many times that a 335 is all the guitar you'll ever need.

Cheers and all the best with your musical journey,
Avery Roberts

[pdfiddler]

You are very welcome.


After research and discussions with forum members, here are my suggestions for your consideration:


1. Fender Coronado 1 or Coronado 2. The older Coronados are full hollow body, (newer ones have a centre block) look somewhat like a 335 and have either 1 or 2 DeArmond or Fender Fidelitron pickups. They have bolt-on necks and 25 1/2" scale lengths so a 2" neck from "Big Lou" would be a drop-in, bolt-on, inexpensive solution.

Big Lou Wide Necks - Big Lou Wide Nut Electric Guit


2. Consult a local luthier/teacher as to what to do.


3. Custom made instrument from a local luthier with a 650 - 660 mm scale length and 2" neck. The 660 mm scale is used by some classical guitars.


4. Keep plying the local musical instrument stores, pawn shops, salvation army stores, local online second-hand lists etc. on a regular basis, or put out "wanted" ads with the stores and second-hand lists, until you find something that fits you and "speaks" to you.


5. Stay with the 335 in the meantime or forever.


Cheers and all the best with your search,
Avery Roberts

Postscript 1: Any neck replacement, even a bolt-on, should be done by a luthier to ensure proper alignment and fit.
Postscript 2: 2" neck means 2" wide at the nut
Postscript 3: Here's a picture of a Coronado II

My first good guitar was a Coronado II that my dad bought me in 1969 along with a Fender Bassman with 2x15 cab.

[Prof Silverhair]

Random update...

I spent my Black Friday in a great music store playing almost all their hollow bodies. It was my first opportunity to sit down with Eastman's; I played an 805, 503, Pisano, and 372.

A few short takeaways...
- I thought the 805 or 503 was what I was chasing. Nope. Neither did it for me for different reasons
- Folks here were right; the 372 doesn't sound like an ES175 despite looking like a clone.
- The Pisano was a pleasant surprise. All laminate, great balanced sound, warm and articulate.
- Played a new Epi Broadway. Despite the lack of attention to detail. It felt and sounded great.

Finally...
Based on everything I played nothing sounded as good as the Epi 175 Premium. Really leaning towards keeping it and forcing myself to like the slim neck - might must be a silly reason to give up on a great guitar.

[LifeOnJazz]

Do you remember which Pisano model you played? I think there are 3 or 4 now. The newer one that Frank Vignola has been playing (AR480) is a beauty and has been tempting me. There are none around me to try out.

[Prof Silverhair]

It was this model:

AR480CE - Eastman Guitars

Of all the guitars I played, it was my choice as the standout in the group. I was swapping guitars with a professional player/teacher and he agreed. The 480 just had a thing. Great feel, no frills, fantastic well balanced tone, top quality build, familiar size. I went there specifically to play the 805 and 503 and expected to fall in love and leave with one of them. Instead, the 480 surprised me and ended up leaving with picks and strap locks, lol.

If you can't find one near year, maybe find a place that will take returns? It's good enough, imo, to take the chance....and I'm not one to buy guitars online, un-played.

Happy hunting and be sure to update on your search!

Do you remember which Pisano model you played? I think there are 3 or 4 now. The newer one that Frank Vignola has been playing (AR480) is a beauty and has been tempting me. There are none around me to try out.

[LifeOnJazz]

Thanks for the info... and pleased to hear. I've heard similar accounts from others on the AR480. I guess you don't always know how an instrument is going play and sound until you get it in your hands. Eastman must have done something right with this one.

There is a major music retailer with a good return policy near me that sells this model, so I do have that option.

[pdfiddler]

Waiting for my second Epiphone IBG 335. They have the true '59 medium neck.
Should be here on Tuesday.

[nyc chaz]

It was this model:

AR480CE - Eastman Guitars

Of all the guitars I played, it was my choice as the standout in the group. I was swapping guitars with a professional player/teacher and he agreed. The 480 just had a thing. Great feel, no frills, fantastic well balanced tone, top quality build, familiar size. I went there specifically to play the 805 and 503 and expected to fall in love and leave with one of them. Instead, the 480 surprised me and ended up leaving with picks and strap locks, lol.

If you can't find one near year, maybe find a place that will take returns? It's good enough, imo, to take the chance....and I'm not one to buy guitars online, un-played.

Happy hunting and be sure to update on your search!

The 480 looks and sounds very close to a es 165 only for a lot less money. You made a good choice.Enjoy!

[va3ux]

I'm always a little worried about neck measurements since they seem to vary. I tend only to be able to talk about the ones I have that I've been able to measure. I have a Zephyr Regent re-issue (looks like the ES165) and I'm wondering if it's a mahogany back/neck instrument. It sounds wonderful for a budget instrument. These guitars were definitely not made on cookie-cutters!

This is a late reply, but our Peerless-made Epi ZRs do have mahogany laminate back and sides, and the neck is also mahogany.

The Epi website contained some errors in the specs for this guitar, which they acknowledged during an email exchange, but they didn't get around to correcting the web page. The most notable error was that the neck was maple with a 25.5" scale. Of course it is actually mahogany with a 24.75 " scale.

[lawson-stone]

This is a late reply, but our Peerless-made Epi ZRs do have mahogany laminate back and sides, and the neck is also mahogany.

The Epi website contained some errors in the specs for this guitar, which they acknowledged during an email exchange, but they didn't get around to correcting the web page. The most notable error was that the neck was maple with a 25.5" scale. Of course it is actually mahogany with a 24.75 " scale.

Thanks. This EZR checks so many boxes, and now "mahogany" is yet one more.

[davang55]

Didn't like the Eastman either. I've also had more expensive Eastmans and I just don't like their neck carve. Shame.

[Cunamara]

I’m a little surprised that no one has suggested parting ways with the Epiphone ES-175 Premium, which has a neck that doesn’t agree with him, and replacing it with a Gibson ES-175. Or maybe somebody did make that suggestion and I missed it in all the posts. The neck won’t be exactly like the ES-335, but it will have that Gibson feel.

While Epiphone got the tone right with the Premium, it didn’t get the neck right (assuming we’re defining the Gibson neck as “right“ and recognizing that the profile of the Gibson neck changed dramatically over 70 years from baseball bat to toothpick and all points in between). FWIW my 2005 Gibson ES-175 has a neck that is very similar to my Ibanez GB10, which is actually my favorite archtop guitar and has the best neck I’ve ever played. The GB10 is very versatile and a wonderful instrument, but it does not sound exactly like the ES-175. Except maybe the Epiphone Premium, nothing does.

My advice is to move the Epiphone along to someone who it suits better and search for a Gibson. At least find one to try and see if it suits you. [Edit] There is a 2006 ES 175 for sale here on the forum from Hammertone, who is a seller of excellent repute. This was in good era for these guitars, by reputation and based on my 2005.

[BeboppeurUSA]

I love the feel of Ibanez GB necks too, but especially because the scale length is good. Even a thick neck, like on some older Harmony guitars, is OK for me... But we're all different and it's important to feel comfortable in order to progress in one's playing.

BTW, I love the Jimmy Carter quote: so pertinent in today's world!

[medblues]

...

While Epiphone got the tone right with the Premium, it didn’t get the neck right (assuming we’re defining the Gibson neck as “right“ and recognizing that the profile of the Gibson neck changed dramatically over 70 years from baseball bat to toothpick and all points in between).

I feel lucky in the sense that I can switch from classical guitar neck to shredder guitar neck with no hand/finger discomfort. In fact, I think it's good for the brain to make those changes often enough (not unlike trying to brush your teeth or write with your non-dominant hand.)

[BeboppeurUSA]

I feel lucky in the sense that I can switch from classical guitar neck to shredder guitar neck with no hand/finger discomfort. In fact, I think it's good for the brain to make those changes often enough (not unlike trying to brush your teeth or write with your non-dominant hand.)

Yes, excellent points! I have small hands and early arthritis so scale length and fingerboard width matter to me. But I have several guitars and they are all set up differently, some with higher action and thicker strings. I try to play the latter daily to maintain muscle strength, and because it makes my other guitars with lower action and thinner strings so much easier to play!