Headstock shape, and other things

[coyote-1]

One of the things that prompted me to move on from my Robelli jazzbox was an uncorrectible wolf tone, on C. I went to some lengths to ameliorate it, but never with total success.

I notice that my Eastman AR610ce has no discernible wolf tone.

The Robelli, in retrospect, had a number of potential sources of the issue. It had a shortish wire tailpiece. This meant that the strings behind the bridge could produce unwanted resonances… and so could the wire tailpiece. Indeed, muting the strings AND putting a rubber block between the wires of the tailpiece changed the character of the wolf tone.

But it was never eliminated. And I imagine that the strings above the nut contributed to that issue. It was a smallish headstock, which I preferred visually to the larger headstocks. But that configuration meant the strings, from tuner to nut, had no obstruction… and could therefore lend additional unwanted resonances.

By contrast, the strings on the Eastman - as on so many of the legendary jazz hollow bodies - rest against other tuners. That is, the D string, on its way from post to nut, rests against the post of the A string. Thus minimizing the possibility of resonance.

So I have learned to love the look of the wider headstock! Form must follow function after all. Along that line, the string lengths from bridge to tailpiece are shorter on the Eastman - and the sheet metal tailpiece with the glued-on wood decoration would of course not have as much potential for resonance as that tensed wire tailpiece.

[Tom Wright]

The source of resonances that cause a strong peak is either the body or the neck. The extra string length is not involved. Body resonances aid the acoustic tone, add character to the electric sound, but shorten sustain somewhat.

A true "wolf" tone is a resonance so narrow it drives a string to its particular frequency, causing dissonance when the string tries to be two pitches. I had this on a viola, the open A making a nasty sound. In my case, it was the neck, so a small weight added in the pegbox lowered the resonance and spread it out a bit, making it possible to play the open string without it warbling.


My electric mandolin's neck tends to resonate around 600 Hz, so the D on the A course, with that frequency, doesn't sustain much.

[jazzshrink]

...By contrast, the strings on the Eastman - as on so many of the legendary jazz hollow bodies - rest against other tuners. That is, the D string, on its way from post to nut, rests against the post of the A string...

Really? By design?

[coyote-1]

Really? By design?

well…. It’s certainly not by accident, is it. I cannot imagine any other reason to have the tuners ‘fanfold’ outward - especially when so doing adds mass to the headstock, which when using a strap would potentially result in neck dive.

[sgosnell]

The only reason I know of is aesthetics - it just looks nice to someone. The Gibson headstock is similar, although not quite as pronounced. Personally, I prefer a headstock which brings the strings out as straight as possible. I think that makes tuning easier and more consistent, because it puts the least friction in the nut slots. On headstocks such as Eastman and Gibson, I use a String Butler to alleviate this issue. I've never experienced a straight string causing wolf tones.

[jazzshrink]

well…. It’s certainly not by accident, is it. I cannot imagine any other reason to have the tuners ‘fanfold’ outward - especially when so doing adds mass to the headstock, which when using a strap would potentially result in neck dive.

I have an older Eastman 810CE, a new Ibanez LGB30, an ES-125 copy and I played a '53 ES-175 for many years. None of them have/had strings resting on lower tuners. Am I just lucky, or is what you're describing a flaw or defect or a sign of damage? Do other JGO members have guitars that exhibit this phenomenon?

[icr]

Pictures?

[jazzshrink]

Pictures?

Yes, please. I'd like to see pictures of strings resting on lower tuning posts. I'm sure that they exist, just haven't encountered them in my limited experience.

[John A.]

well…. It’s certainly not by accident, is it. I cannot imagine any other reason to have the tuners ‘fanfold’ outward - especially when so doing adds mass to the headstock, which when using a strap would potentially result in neck dive.

I doubt that Eastman designed it this way for a functional reason. People actually complain about the interference, and Eastman changed the headstock design on some models in response. I think it was just a visual design, and they didn't consider this aspect of it until the guitars were in production. There are definitely other builders with headstocks that fan out and strings that come close to to the intervening tuners (my Seventy Seven does this, and I've seen this on some D'Angelicos, for example), but I think Eastman may be the only well known maker that has them actually touch. Also, I assume there are many other differences between your (Carlo?) Robelli and your Eastman (?). It might well be that the Eastman doesn't have the "wolf" tone (or whatever the correct term for this resonance is) for entirely different reasons.

[jazzshrink]

I doubt that Eastman designed it this way for a functional reason. People actually complain about the interference, and Eastman changed the headstock design on some models in response. I think it was just a visual design, and they didn't consider this aspect of it until the guitars were in production. There are definitely other builders with headstocks that fan out and strings that come close to to the intervening tuners (my Seventy Seven does this, and I've seen this on some D'Angelicos, for example), but I think Eastman may be the only well known maker that has them actually touch. Also, I assume there are many other differences between your (Carlo?) Robelli and your Eastman (?). It might well be that the Eastman doesn't have the "wolf" tone (or whatever the correct term for this resonance is) for entirely different reasons.

So, is it your opinion that aside from some Eastman models (which have since been corrected), this "touching" is not a common occurrence? Hence, the claim that "the strings on the Eastman - as on so many of the legendary jazz hollow bodies - rest against other tuners" is incorrect? I've got to thank the OP. Before this, I didn't understand the wolf tone phenomenon. I did my own search and even found a Wolf Tones Blog! The things you learn!

[John A.]

So, is it your opinion that aside from some Eastman models (which have since been corrected), this "touching" is not a common occurrence?

Observation, not opinion. Others' observations may differ and I'm happy to reconsider mine if there's information to the contrary.

Hence, the claim that "the strings on the Eastman - as on so many of the legendary jazz hollow bodies - rest against other tuners" is incorrect

I think that is probably incorrect, yes. If you can point to a bunch of legendary jazz hollow bodies that do have this attribute, I'll happily stand corrected. But if you think about it, "legendary" is a pretty limited set -- maybe Gibson, D'Angelico, Epiphone, Stromberg, D'Aquisto, Guild, and some of the modern builders like Heritage or Benedetto? Have you ever seen any of these with strings that touch the tuners? I haven't.

I've got to thank the OP. Before this, I didn't understand the wolf tone phenomenon. I did my own search and even found a Wolf Tones Blog! The things you learn!

I've only ever heard of wolf tones in the context of bowed instruments. With guitar, there are other oddball resonances and noises, though, especially archtops.

[bluejaybill]

I've only ever heard of wolf tones in the context of bowed instruments. With guitar, there are other oddball resonances and noises, though, especially archtops.

Yes, more common in my experience is when you hit a note and it is slightly dead, but you can really feel the note through the archtop body. I think of it as having hit a resonant frequency of the body, and it tends to decrease the sustain on that note or, worse, creates a dead note. This is an anecdotal and not scientific observation however.

[John A.]

Yes, more common in my experience is when you hit a note and it is slightly dead, but you can really feel the note through the archtop body. I think of it as having hit a resonant frequency of the body, and it tends to decrease the sustain on that note or, worse, creates a dead note. This is an anecdotal and not scientific observation however.

I don't think I've experienced that (luckily), but I've been driven nuts by assorted buzzes and rattles.