Should I ditch my tube amp?

[Christian Miller]

Still lighter than a Morgan PR12

[John A.]

Do they have automobiles where you live? It's that compartment in the rear of most automobiles that some people keep so full of junk they couldn't fit a box of cigars in there if they tried. Cigars are those brown things some people smoke that they probably shouldn't.

They do have automobiles where I live, but they are all piloted by strange beings from other boroughs and states. I did not know that they had the function of guarding other objects. I thought these vehicles' only purpose was terror.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Long ago when I was young (late 50's) and strong, I played the annual dinner dance of the Dexel University Board with a great band. I dropped my 65 pound EVM-loaded Boogie and my guitar into my trunk, drove down to the venue, and parked my car. As I bent over the open trunk to retrieve my gear, I had a sudden and disturbing revelation. A not-so-little voice whispered in my ear that if I hurt my back taking the amp out of the trunk, I wouldn't be able to play the gig. It went on to add that if it was bad enough, I wouldn't be able to drive home and I wouldn't be able to go to work the next day. In fact, I might even be out of circulation for longer than that or need medical attention.

Fortunately, I got it out with no trouble and the gig was fine - but the seed was planted. Schlepping the Boogie or my Twin had become noticeably more annoying over the years, and I really was becoming concerned that I'd hurt myself if I kept it up for much longer. My wife had been worried about this for far longer than I was, but I was (and still am) in fine physical condition and blew it off until that night. I'd already started trying smaller rigs, but there were still no decent light amps, cabs or speakers out there. Neo was a gleam in Jim Lansing's eye and class D was a descriptor for cheap seats. I had an excellent original SF Vibrolux that I used at home and loved, so I started gigging with that.

But as new stuff came out, I tried it all. I bought a new RE 10" from Rich (which, thankfully, I still have) and prayed for the emergence of a great tiny amp head. I bought and sold a first gen Blues Deluxe, a Rivera-era Princeton Reverb 2, the first Peavey TransTube Bandit, an SWR Baby Baby Blue, two Phil Jones models, the first GenzBenz 1x12 combo, etc. I tried small heads with the RE and my Boogie Thiele EVM cab, including the original Boogie Walkabout (which did sound great, but it was built like a cheap toy - I sold it when the input jack broke out. Nothing sounded as good as the Twin or the Boogie, but I was already on the road to redemption. I even survived the endless jokes from band members about having a different amp at each gig. Eventually, we got Henriksens, Quilters, etc and it was good.

Now I'm pushing 80 and very glad to have the little guys. I'm still in great shape - we work out every day, including strength training and cardio. I still fit in (and wear, much to my wife's chagrin) the tux I got married in 51 years ago. But there's no way I'd ever drag even a 30 pound amp on a gig again. We grow old too soon and smart too late.

[John A.]

In defense of the “Princeton weighs a ton” crowd, the modern reissue fender Princeton reissue is way heavier than an original pine cabinet Princeton. A pine cab Princeton is roughly 27 lbs. the new ones are 35 lbs stock. Add a larger magnet speaker and you’ve got a nearly 40lb 12 watt amp. That to me makes no sense.

I have a '78 (particle board cabinet) and a C10Q. On my bathroom scale it's 35 LBS.

for reference my 1964 vibrolux reverb with small magnet Jupiter speakers only weighs 39 lbs. a deluxe reverb with a small magnet speaker should only weigh around 35-38 lbs.

so yeah fender just isn’t making them right anymore. 35 lb is a lot to be carrying down the street but in my mind 35 lb is the weight of a deluxe not a Princeton. Don’t blame the tubes, blame the cost cutting geniuses at fender.

Honestly, it's not just the weight. I love the sound of tube amps. I don't love having to shell out hundreds of dollars on servicing and new tubes every few years (intervals depending on how much use the amp is getting). The question comes down to whether sounding almost as good is good enough. Trying to figure that out now.

[st.bede]

Great thread. So many options. I understand that there are many great solid state options for an apartment dweller. I have a Yamaha THR that I use for teaching and it would be a great option for sure. However, I was assuming the OP wanted to stick with his tube amp.

In my earlier post, I advocated for the Bozz Waza Tube Amp Expander but did not get deep into the details then. With no desire to ruffle anyone's feathers (If you prefer a different attenuator than the ones I recommend), I think it's helpful to share some more about the features and capabilities of this amazing unit.

First off, obviously the TAE can attenuate most any tube amp allowing you to crank the amp into its sweet spot yet give you full control of the output volume. The Boss/Waza engineers got this one feature perfect. No coloration (no tone suck) of the amp's native tone at all. It's quite astounding. I have used attenuators for my rock rigs for years and have tried them all. Most of them do not capture the natural tone of an otherwise great tube amp and end up being a waste of their $100 to $500 cost. A few of the higher-end units $600 to $900 do a nicer job but still color the tone.

The best of these units are the OX, Fryette Power Station, and Boss Waza TAE and cost $1,000 to $1,300. All three are reactive load boxes and have a ton of features. The OX and TAE both have USB and built-in effects. The Power Station and TAE, in addition to being reactive load attenuators, are also re-ampers--meaning they can also serve as a power-amp for a low wattage tube amp (like a Blues Jr.) enabling you to use your small amp on large gigs. If recording is your thing and you don't gig, the OX is fantastic. If you gig, you want the Power Station or the TAE. I chose to keep the TAE because it has all the best features of the OX and the Power Station and just plain sounds the best to me. I get sweet-spot power tube saturation at any volume I choose.

Here are the TAE's key features: all outputs have separate volume controls, a headphone output, studio quality effects built-in, multiple "rig" presets, a foot switchable solo function allowing configurable volume boost (killer for a single channel amp my my Plexi!), a direct out recording output with slots for your favorite IRs, stereo line outs, FOH line out, configurable effects loop, USB port (audio interface and control/configure the unit using Boss software), multiple footswitch jacks, MIDI In and Out/Thru, Impedance selector for amp output (4, 8, or 16 ohm), Two Speaker outs (run 2 cabs if desired). I'm sure I've missed a few features.

Bottom line, I like the TAE enough that I bought another one for another of my rigs. I have friends with OXs and Power Stations and they swear by them too. So, lots of options to take 20th-century tube tech into the 21st century. If you're not picky, some of the lower cost, passive attenuators--Bugera Power Soak, THD Hot Plate, Weber Mass/Mini Mass, Marshall Power Brake (that one is pretty good, actually), etc.might work fine. But I wanted the best sound, an effects loop, USB audio interface, and a headphone output for late nights so I prefer the fuller-featured ones mentioned above.

Hopefully this was insightful.

Awesome post… I had dismissed the Boss. I can not remember why. I am going to take another look.

I have two issues with Boss/Roland gear. A. They just put out the same stuff over and over again in different configurations. B. They only do a couple/few updates to a product and then expect you to buy the new one. That also has they impact of them lowering the prices on all the old stuff right before it becomes outdated.

Having said all that… I could probably build an ark out of all my Roland/Boss stuff and even though it becomes outdated it still is a solid.

[Spook410]

The argument that tube amps weigh too much can't be addressed by the 12W Princeton. Not enough amp outside of the living room.

Next stop is Fender Deluxe Reverb. 22W and still not enough for all settings (e.g. quartet with drummer). And 42 pounds.

Of course a Fender Twin will work just fine for anything and sounds great. A svelte 64 pounds per Sweetwater. I think they actually weigh a bit more. My 81 Fender Concert (great amp) weighs 75 pounds.

Yes. You can mic it into the PA. If there's a PA.. if there's a sound guy.. if you can get that to sound good and you want to go through the hassle.

In the real world.. a major downside to tube amps is their weight.

[omphalopsychos]

I have a '78 (particle board cabinet) and a C10Q. On my bathroom scale it's 35 LBS.

Fender stopped making them right a long time ago with the particle board cabs.

[sgosnell]

The weight of tube amps doesn't come from the tubes. They're relatively light. The weight comes from the iron in the transformers, all of them add up. Solid state amps are lighter mostly because they don't need the transformers, and the more power, the heavier the transformers have to be. Hand-wired amps are also inevitably larger than solid state, because the parts can't fit onto a surface-mount circuit board, and thus the larger chassis also contributes to the weight, as do all the old-technology parts. Even as light as tubes are, they're heavier than modern transistors and opamps. A Quilter Superblock weighs just over 21 ounces, and puts out up to 25 watts, while a Princeton only puts out 15 watts max. The Superblock emulates three different Fender amp types very well, and costs a fraction of a Fender tube amp. One can argue that the Princeton sounds marginally better under some conditions, but not everyone prefers that marginally better sound, to some ears, over the huge reduction in size and weight. Everyone is absolutely free to buy the amp they have the money for, but for someone wanting an amp to play quietly in an apartment bedroom, a tube amp is not always the best choice.

[omphalopsychos]

The argument that tube amps weigh too much can't be addressed by the 12W Princeton. Not enough amp outside of the living room.

Next stop is Fender Deluxe Reverb. 22W and still not enough for all settings (e.g. quartet with drummer). And 42 pounds.

Of course a Fender Twin will work just fine for anything and sounds great. A svelte 64 pounds per Sweetwater. I think they actually weigh a bit more. My 81 Fender Concert (great amp) weighs 75 pounds.

Yes. You can mic it into the PA. If there's a PA.. if there's a sound guy.. if you can get that to sound good and you want to go through the hassle.

In the real world.. a major downside to tube amps is their weight.

You can get a 40 watt tube amp that weighs only 32 lbs. Less than the princeton reverb reissue. 40W Pedal Steel Mini – Milkman Sound

A 40 watt tube amp is going to have plenty of headroom, definitely more than a dimed Henriksen Bud (I know this for a fact because I have both).


Anyone care to remind me how much a raezers edge cabinet weighs? No need, I can weigh it on my bathroom scale. 31 lbs. Add your 2 lb solid state head and you've still got 33 lbs.

[omphalopsychos]

For the record I don't always take a tube amp when I play out. If the band is too loud or if I have to walk too far I take a solid state amp that can keep up with volume requirements but not cause an injury.


I switched from Henriksen to Milkman for my lightweight rig because it sounds more tubelike (has a 12AX7 pre). Definitely an improvement.

But I keep my solid state amps in the closet next to gig bags and other practical and unsightly things. I never plug them in at home where I have tube amps at my disposal.

[John A.]

You can get a 40 watt tube amp that weighs only 32 lbs. Less than the princeton reverb reissue. 40W Pedal Steel Mini – Milkman Sound

For 3 grand I don’t care what it weighs. The friggin’ thing better carry me.

A 40 watt tube amp is going to have plenty of headroom, definitely more than a dimed Henriksen Bud (I know this for a fact because I have both).

Through the same speaker?

Anyone care to remind me how much a raezers edge cabinet weighs? No need, I can weigh it on my bathroom scale. 31 lbs. Add your 2 lb solid state head and you've still got 33 lbs.

And I can now tell you that a 50-watt Aviator Cub has more headroom and weighs 13 LBS less than a ‘78 Princeton Reverb because I just got one. Costs about a grand less than I can sell the PR for, too. But the PR has that certain something. The headroom thing is hard to judge at home though. Decisions decisions …

[wintermoon]

"But the PR has that certain something"

tubealicious goodness

[John A.]

The weight of tube amps doesn't come from the tubes. They're relatively light. The weight comes from the iron in the transformers, all of them add up. Solid state amps are lighter mostly because they don't need the transformers, and the more power, the heavier the transformers have to be. Hand-wired amps are also inevitably larger than solid state, because the parts can't fit onto a surface-mount circuit board, and thus the larger chassis also contributes to the weight, as do all the old-technology parts. Even as light as tubes are, they're heavier than modern transistors and opamps. A Quilter Superblock weighs just over 21 ounces, and puts out up to 25 watts, while a Princeton only puts out 15 watts max. The Superblock emulates three different Fender amp types very well, and costs a fraction of a Fender tube amp. One can argue that the Princeton sounds marginally better under some conditions, but not everyone prefers that marginally better sound, to some ears, over the huge reduction in size and weight. Everyone is absolutely free to buy the amp they have the money for, but for someone wanting an amp to play quietly in an apartment bedroom, a tube amp is not always the best choice.

I think we all get that the literal tubes vs transistors is the least of the reasons tube amps typically weigh less than SS, but agree with everything you say otherwise. I also think it’s foolish to compare tubes to SS to digital in the abstract. The only thing that makes sense is to compare specific amps (or combinations of amps and cabs) in reference to a specific player’s needs and tastes.

[Spook410]

For 3 grand I don’t care what it weighs. The friggin’ thing better carry me.

OK.. that made me laugh.

Back to our regularly scheduled program... you can't say that the weight issue with tube amps is addressed by going to an underpowered amp or by going to a specialty product costing twice to three times as much.

Comparison for an apples to apples might better consider the ubiquitous Fender blackface line of amps versus their alternatives like Quilter or Fenders own Tonemaster line. And in all those examples, the solid state versions are going to provide tone that, arguably, your bandmates and audience will find indistinguishable from the tube forebears. All the while coming in at a much more lug-able point on the scale.

And that's before you consider cost, parts availability, features, and maintenance which are all vastly improved on the more modern products.

[sgosnell]

Yes, RE cabs are heavy. But they're not the only choice. My Toob Metro weighs 4.5 pounds, and sounds better to me than my 30 pound RE Stealth 10, through the same heads. My all-up weight, including power supply and cables for the Soundblock/Toob is 6.5 pounds, and fits in a backpack. And I still prefer the bedroom sound to my now-dead Vibrolux Reverb. Sound is completely subjective, but weight and space are easily and repeatably measured.

[wintermoon]

the solid state versions are going to provide tone that, arguably, your bandmates and audience will find indistinguishable from the tube forebears.

Understood but to a large degree I don't really care all that much what they think, most of them probably couldn't tell the difference between a Harmony and an L-5 either. The stuff I use on a gig is geared to the sound I like.
Life's too short to compromise imo.

[omphalopsychos]

There's a lot to a rig that only a player can detect. For example, and audience can't perceive how a rig feels to you, whether it's guitar or amp specific. But you can definitely feel it. Solid state amps don't compress as much as I want them to. As a result I find myself having to play more delicately to prevent volume spikes. Not a fan.

[TAA]

I was active in the late '60's and stepped aside in the late '70's. Today I see two expressions that weren't around way back when....
Overdriven
Break up

Any chance those are the sounds that a speaker producing distortion makes? Maybe like a Fuzztone (there's an antique!).

Thanks

Tom

[Daddy Dom]

For 3 grand I don’t care what it weighs. The friggin’ thing better carry me.

Three and a half, if you go for the pedal-steelers' preferred 15" speaker.

[Litterick]

My Princeton Reverb II has a speaker made by Electro-Voice and a dovetailed oak plank cabinet. It is going nowhere.

[John A.]

There's a lot to a rig that only a player can detect. For example, and audience can't perceive how a rig feels to you, whether it's guitar or amp specific. But you can definitely feel it. Solid state amps don't compress as much as I want them to. As a result I find myself having to play more delicately to prevent volume spikes. Not a fan.

So far I can tell that’s not true with the Quilter. The response and feel are very tubey and tweakable via the limiter knob. The difference is more in the tone itself, a certain sweetness in the very high frequency end the PR has that the Aviator doesn’t precisely perfectly capture. And that may come down more to something like the speakers.

[omphalopsychos]

I do like the limiter on the quilter but it doesn't respond the same way a tube amp does. The quilter still feels like it responds super fast and hard. Applying a limiting compressor changes the feel a bit but it's different from the type of compression you get from a tube amp, where the response feels a bit slower.


Btw I used to have an aviator and the speaker was a limiting factor. My recommendation for that amp or the quilter superblock is a celestion cream alnico. Huge improvement over stock.

[ccroft]

Here in Oakland we don’t keep anything in the trunk. In fact there’s a free service in the city that smashes your window and cleans your car out weekly.

NYC in the 80's people used to put a sign on the dashboard: "NO STEREO IN CAR".

The window gets broken anyway. Then they notice their sign's been replaced with one that says "GET ONE".

OP: don't ditch your tube amp. Keep it and buy something else. Clearly one amp is not enough.

[DawgBone]

I've done many many hundreds of gigs using a Twin and barely every carried it. A DOLLY OR HAND TRUCK slips right under it and you truck it to the car or stage and it's boogie time. I guess dudes expect to be able to walk blocks and blocks with an amp in their hand, and I get it if the subway is your only ride or you're an AARP guy, but this ain't that hard to figure out if you got a car or an uber and eat meat occasionally. I used to gig downtown 3-4 nights a week and parked several blocks from the club and rolled my rig right down the street. Never had a problem.

I'd quit if it was all solid state or modeling stuff. It has a place. In someone else's gear collection.

I've done about 450 mostly very loud 3 hour gigs plus several hundred mostly loud rehearsals and recording sessions using one of my Twins. That thing has been incredibly reliable and if it breaks I have a 2nd one and I probably paid less for both of them than you'd pay for a vintage princeton reverb.

[jzucker]

yes, i got a helix and am not looking back. Sold my $4k tube amp after the helix proved to not only keep up but actually be better at practice and recording volumes.