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Hey all, just kinda curious about these. Mike Moreno uses them, and I was listening to an interview with him and the builder. I'm not crazy about the styling, but hearing the builder discuss his approach was interesting. He seems extremely detail oriented and very thoughtful, and seems to have worked with and gleaned from other big name builders. Particularly his approach to building carved semi hollows like a hollow body I found very interesting.
Then I looked at the prices.
Even their solid bodies are like $15k. The semi hollows between $15-20k. Archtops all the way up to $50k.
There's currently a vintage D'Angelico sitting at TR Crandall for like $45k.
So my question is...why? Has anyone ever played these? Is there really something about these that would make someone choose one over a vintage D'Angelico? Or even like my 63 L-7, which I paid $6.5k for (which felt like a lot of money, or so I thought!) I get that they're meticulously handbuilt, but other people are selling meticulously handbuilt instruments for a lot less.
I'm not trying to throw any shade at them, I'm just truly mystified haha
Edit: D'Aquisto, not D'AngelicoLast edited by BreckerFan; 09-19-2023 at 12:55 PM.
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09-19-2023 12:39 PM
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Well that makes two of us I am completely mystified.
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Mark Whitfield used one (a red one) back in the late 90's/early 2000's. It certainly looked and sounded beautiful.
I had no idea they were that expensive, though (probabily not back in those days?), obviously not for everyone's pockets!
As a musician, I would not spend more than 3000 (dollars or euros) for a guitar. Endorsers and famous, accomplished guitarists can have them for little money. The only ones who are ok with spending tens of thousands are collectors, I guess...
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Stuff is worth what people will pay...there's a few name players who play Marchione. He's been in business quite a while.
I personally love the aesthetic. Why Marchione when there's a D'A for the same price? Why a Lamborghini when there's a Rolls Royce? Very different guitars.
And he really is basically a one man shop, though I do believe his daughter is his apprentice.
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Yeah that's fair, if someone's heart is set on a Marchione then that's it. I guess my question is what is he doing that sets his instruments apart? Clearly he must be selling some, so what is it about them that has people coming back?
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I know virtually nothing about him or his instruments but 50K and this was the best piece of maple he could come up w/for a neck for his top of the line guitar?
granted it has no affect on sound but if I'm kicking out that kinda $ I 'd expect something a bit better.
and this is the the one on his website that people are basing their order on?
well ok then....
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He used to build Pensa guitars for Rudy's (after Suhr went off on his own), and I played one of those. It was a strat copy, so not indicative of what he does now, but it was an amazing guitar, the only one I've ever played that made me reconsider my plain-Jane Fender. As to the price, what can one really say? His designs are unique. If you want one, that's the price. Low-volume builders face high unit costs and overheads. I'm never really surprised at the prices they ask. Out of my reach, and against my frugality, but if there's a market for his work, more power to both builder and buyer.
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Some builders have a demand for their work that pushes prices to a point where most of us lose interest. Marchione is one of those builders.
Bearing in mind that Julian Lage would probably sound better than any of us here playing an Eastman, then we would playing a Marchione, it isn't so much about what the guitar can do. It is about what the guitar can do for you. If a Marchione inspires your playing and you have the coin, buying a Marchione becomes a win-win.
@the OP, if you have the coin and a vintage DA would float your boat more than a Marchione (as it would mine), buy the DA. That is why there is chocolate and vanilla.
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Just read an article in Guitarist magazine about a really high-end UK-built flattop. The article mentions that there are many luthiers out there in this world who produce flattops or archtops clocking up tens of thousands of dollars and two- to five-year waiting lists. Demand far exceeds supply. When I see and hear people play one of Theo Scharpach’s archtops, I’m inclined to think those are worth it. Not that I’ll ever own one.
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I didn't think about the supply and demand aspect, that probably explains a fair bit of it. And I have no doubt they are exceptional instruments, especially given the list of players he's built guitars for (Moreno, Whitfield, Abercrombie, even Mark Knopfler apparently).
And again I dont care if that's what someone is set on and they can swing it. The more expert luthiers there are carrying on the craft the better. But the prices are markedly higher than many other boutique builders, which raised an eyebrow.
(And tbh, $15k for a super strat seems like too much. But I don't have $15k for a guitar, so I don't have to worry about it haha)
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This summer, I saw this little kid with a lemonade stand, and he had priced it at $50 a cup. When I told him that was too high, he said "I only gotta sell one." Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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As much as I admire the aesthetic and quality, my playing will never equal that.
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My experience thus far is low volume builders have very little costs. They can literally make them in a bedroom or a shed/outbuilding. They don't have to hire a commercial premises, they don't have to pay business rates, they don't have to take on a business energy contract which are usually more expensive per kw/h than domestic. They don't use big machinery that runs on 3k of electricity. They don't need a big spray room, or expensive ducting. Originally Posted by John A.
I could go on but you get the point.
There are things I might not have considered however so happy to be enlightened or proven wrong. I just can't see how taking on very little finical commitment makes things more expensive.
What charging a lot for your work and getting away with it does (and I don't mean that cynically), is it allows you to build and develop. You have time to asses things and change things, which in the long run, should make you a better builder; all things being equal.
IF you're constantly building the next order, you could end up being a factory luthier, which on a small scale (single person builder in a small shop), doesn't leave much room for growth but it could make you financially more stable?
One person drops out of your yearly order, that's a loss of $50k. If you can't fill that, that's gonna hurt.
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See, e.g., Ken Parker Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
Ten years ago he was building six guitars per year @ $30,000 each
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You're right regarding the neck. Originally Posted by wintermoon
I know virtually nothing about him or his instruments but 50K and this was the best piece of maple he could come up w/for a neck for his top of the line guitar?
granted it has no affect on sound but if I'm kicking out that kinda $ I 'd expect something a bit better.
and this is the the one on his website that people are basing their order on?
well ok then....
I'd like to see the rest of the guitar.
I suppose the problem is you can't really use quilted maple on necks unless you use carbon fibre reinforcement. I suspect he chose the most stable piece of maple he had for the job. Lightly figured quarter sawn maple is never a bad thing.
The back looks like one piece knife cut veneer but it can't be. He must have considerable book matching skills, or one of the finest, widest pieces, of quilted maple in existence.Last edited by Archie; 09-19-2023 at 05:06 PM.
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Besides the very famous players like Whitfield, Moreno, etc, i've seen quite a few other lesser known pro players on the internet using them. Leo Amuedo, the great Cenk Erdogan, couple of others i don't remember. Not that often, but you see them around. Never played one myself..
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I once asked the same question about Marchiones guitars on another forum and got flamed, Lol! Stephan D’Pergo is another builder name that gets super high $$$$ for his builds.
Always nice to know if they are actually that much better. But the owners and said luthiers aren’t too happy about discussing it.
My feeling is that while these people make very nice instruments, I highly doubt that are exceedingly better than other well know established luthiers such as Mark Campellone or John Suhr in their respective builds.
But if you have the money, I guess you can find out for yourself.
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"Jazz tune:" "It's nice work if you can get it, if you try."
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The major problem with this situation is if and when you have to sell. If you are wealthy, then it probably does not make any difference but even those well off to buy one may experience selling problems. The market for these guitars of high-priced luthiers, is very limited and not practical for most players. I really do not have any problems with players who want to buy and use these boutique guitars, certainly it keeps things interesting. If you happen to stroke out and leave this present world your spouse or family probably are not going to have a easy time of getting them sold at near what they paid. However, a typical L5 Gibson will sell pretty quickly and they might even get more money. Originally Posted by jads57
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I don't get the price OR the aesthetics of these guitars. Nothing remotely attractive to me about this. I don't see a single design decision I would want to replicate.
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Was the kid a 30 year old millennial by any chance? That's what I call entitlement. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Yeah that's kind of my thought, we know returns diminish the higher you pay. I would argue especially when it comes to solid body guitars, beyond like $5k on the high end there truly isn't much more quality to be had (if there even is up to that point). With an archtop where the acoustic qualities come into play a lot more, I can see the ceiling being quite a bit higher, but 10 times higher? I find it a little hard to believe. Originally Posted by jads57
There are of course other elements beyond "quality" tho. The difference between a Les Paul Standard and a custom shop probably has more to do with feel than with really noticable improvements in sound. And of course the feel matters as much or more for a high level guitarist because the interaction with the instrument affects the creative element.
So I imagine with these guitars, the selling point is a combination of very low supply, high levels of craftsmanship (even just purely for its own merits), unique features like the thinline, fully carved semi hollow builds, certain aesthetics, and maybe a certain feel that they have.
To a certain degree those things don't cost more money. But the intersection of them all that he creates is unique, and so if that's what you want, he can sell it for as much as he wants.
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Yeah I gotta say I'm with you. I like the idea of a carved semi hollow built with archtop sensibilities, but the look isn't for me. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
I don't get the price OR the aesthetics of these guitars. Nothing remotely attractive to me about this. I don't see a single design decision I would want to replicate.
My wife and I saw Moreno once, and she said his guitar "looks like an alien" hahaha
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OK, so I'll jump in here; I like classic designs, and I also like "different" -- this stuff is all personal choice, and I dig this:
[although I'd prefer a smaller pick-guard!]
I also appreciate capitalism, so I'm fine with builders charging what they want, and buyers buying what they want. There are countless threads here (and on TGP) about "price vs value," and they all boil down to "buy whatever you want and whatever you can afford!" Cars, guitars, jeans, cameras, computers, suits, et al., they're all the same thing.
[Edit: oh yeah, and amps, too!]Last edited by marcwhy; 09-19-2023 at 10:02 PM.
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I guess the market eventually settles what it’s worth. But I do find it a bit obnoxious to claim to be the top dollar or level when the market or pedigree doesn’t warrant it to begin with.
I do think that it’s a more recent thing to be so bold and advertise yourself and work as more than it actually is. The internet and IPhone have provided a platform world wide. So you can catch more of everything as a seller or buyer.
I think this also relates to music these days as well. But I’ve already been flamed for that as well here. Now stay the hell off of my lawn! Lol!
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