A different speaker?

[scout]

G'day friends,
I'm thinking of changing the speaker in my 1960's Fisonic 12 watt tube amp.
It now has a 12" Celestion G12m which stays pretty clean up to about half volume and as I play at very low volumes these days,I'm thinking about a speaker which begins to break up pretty at much low volme,say at about 1 to 3 on the dial.
Any ideas folks ?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

G'day friends,
I'm thinking of changing the speaker in my 1960's Fisonic 12 watt tube amp.
It now has a 12" Celestion G12m which stays pretty clean up to about half volume and as I play at very low volumes these days,I'm thinking about a speaker which begins to break up pretty at much low volme,say at about 1 to 3 on the dial.
Any ideas folks ?

I doubt that any decent 12” speaker will go into cone breakup or otherwise go gruff at very low volumes. The ones with dime store magnets don’t “break up” as you probably want them to - they just buzz until they break down.

Your best bet as I see it is either a pedal or an output attenuator. There are many excellent and inexpensive pedals, from the TC Mojomojo to the Rowin Dumbler and beyond. I’ve never tried one, but the Moskyaudio pedals are under $50 and get great reviews.

You might also consider playing through an amp simulator on your computer.

[marcwhy]

Yep, I'd agree with 'Never..' -- attenuator or maybe some kind of pedal if you're looking to push things quietly.

[Herbie]

The G12M has a sensibility of 98 dB. Quite high reading. I believe that with a speaker with lower sensibility You could make the amp work a bit harder for same volume and get a bit of overdrive.

F.ex. Jensen CH12/35 has a sensibility of only 95.6 dB. Would it be enough?

I have never tried that speaker, this is only mathemathical speculation. And Jensen would sound a bit different from Celestion Greenback.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I believe that with a speaker with lower sensibility You could make the amp work a bit harder for same volume and get a bit of overdrive.

F.ex. Jensen CH12/35 has a sensibility of only 95.6 dB. Would it be enough?

2 1/2 dB won’t make any difference at all. “Bedroom volume” means tiny fractions of a watt. Normal conversation is about 60 dB at most. Work backwards from 95 to 60, cutting the power in half with each 3 dB drop (of which there are 12 in this example). If 1 watt generates 95 dB 3 feet from the speaker (which is how speaker sensitivity is measured), 60 will require 1/512 of a watt.

A less sensitive speaker is a total waste of money in my opinion.

[Herbie]

2 1/2 dB won’t make any difference at all. “Bedroom volume” means tiny fractions of a watt. Normal conversation is about 60 dB at most. Work backwards from 95 to 60, cutting the power in half with each 3 dB drop (of which there are 12 in this example). If 1 watt generates 95 dB 3 feet from the speaker (which is how speaker sensitivity is measured), 60 will require 1/512 of a watt.
A less sensitive speaker is a total waste of money in my opinion.

You might be right but then I have a Tweed Deluxe clone and it is totally different animal with speakers with different sensibility.

It is a easy distorting rock machine with a Weber 12A125 (sensitivity about 95-96 dB according C.J.Sutton) but with a Weber 12F150 it is a bit Blackfrontish clean loud jazz machine (sensibility about 99 dB according C.J.) at about same volume.

I have not played with an attenuator that had redeemed its promises for giving something more for lower volumes. I have not played them all but most of them eat the sound some how. So maybe I have had the wrong ones!

[pingu]

1284639[/URL]]

I have not played with an attenuator that had redeemed its promises for giving something more for lower volumes. I have not played them all but most of them eat the sound some how. So maybe I have had the wrong ones!

Have you tried an Oxbox ?

[pingu]

1284639[/URL]]

I have not played with an attenuator that had redeemed its promises for giving something more for lower volumes. I have not played them all but most of them eat the sound some how. So maybe I have had the wrong ones!

Have you tried an Oxbox ?

[ThatRhythmMan]

You might be right but then I have a Tweed Deluxe clone and it is totally different animal with speakers with different sensibility.

It is a easy distorting rock machine with a Weber 12A125 (sensitivity about 95-96 dB according C.J.Sutton) but with a Weber 12F150 it is a bit Blackfrontish clean loud jazz machine (sensibility about 99 dB according C.J.) at about same volume.

I have not played with an attenuator that had redeemed its promises for giving something more for lower volumes. I have not played them all but most of them eat the sound some how. So maybe I have had the wrong ones!

I have found the Tone King Ironman II to be remarkably good. I’ve used it with everything from a 1959 Fender Vibrolux to an ENGL Savage 120 Mark II with great results.


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[nevershouldhavesoldit]

You might be right but then I have a Tweed Deluxe clone and it is totally different animal with speakers with different sensibility.

It is a easy distorting rock machine with a Weber 12A125 (sensitivity about 95-96 dB according C.J.Sutton) but with a Weber 12F150 it is a bit Blackfrontish clean loud jazz machine (sensibility about 99 dB according C.J.) at about same volume.

But you’re talking about playing at higher volume. The OP is trying to get breakup at low volume. The only way to get that without effects or an attenuator is to use a very low power amplifier.

There are some really cool 1 and 2 Watt tube amps out there that do the desired deed, but they’re not cheap. A tiny SS amp will fill the OP’s bill for under $100.

I’ve had a Zeus 8401 for many years for this. It probably makes 100mW at the most, and it has a 2” speaker in it. But it also has an external speaker jack, and it’s a killer through my 8” RevSound and 10” RE cabs. It’s clean at a whisper and deliciously crunchy at bedroom practice levels.

You probably won’t find a good Zeus for under $300 (believe it or not) because they’re kinda special - heavy aluminum case, decent innards. It was designed for and actually used by Randy Rhoads. There are several right now on the web for which optimistic owners are asking between $400 & $500 USD. They’re great, although I don’t think they’re worth that much. But there are several really nice tiny and inexpensive amps (eg Joyo, Hotone) that make less than a watt into 8 Ohms before breaking up.

[scout]

Thanks all,
Seems as though I should save my $'s and not change speakers.
I have an old Ibanez Tube Screamer pedal around somewhere,I'll give it a try.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Thanks all,
Seems as though I should save my $'s and not change speakers.
I have an old Ibanez Tube Screamer pedal around somewhere,I'll give it a try.

[Herbie]

Have you tried an Oxbox ?

No I have not. I have understood that it is on totally another level than the previous generation of attenuators. As once were Bad Cat Unleash and Fryette Power Station.

I know that my experience with attenuators is minimal and twisted: I have tried them only in my home studio, never alive with a band. The first experiences with a Weber Mini Mass & some that I don't remember their names was so discouraging that I left that route out.

I just decided to settle for amps and speakers as they are, kept the Weber 12A125 in the Tweed Deluxe and assembled an one channel version of the Blackfront Deluxe for clean sounds. This DIY route I got a new amp cheaper than those hi-end attenuators!