Watch those old nitro guards everyone

[wintermoon]

1981 Gibson Byrdland SunBurst w/ Gold Hardware USA Hollow Body Guitar | eBay

[icr]

My dream L5 would be $5000 and easily repaired just like that.

[ccroft]

Gak! Good PSA.

[JazzNote]

i wonder how the finish behind the pickguard looks like ....

[pingu]

wow , what is the gas involved
when the pickguard ‘off-gasses’

its powerfull stuff anyway

[ThatRhythmMan]

wow , what is the gas involved
when the pickguard ‘off-gasses’

its powerfull stuff anyway

wow , what is the gas involved
when the pickguard ‘off-gasses’

its powerfull stuff anyway

It’s nitric acid.

This has a lot of info on celluloid.

https://cool.culturalheritage.org/ja...30-02-003.html


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[Cunamara]

Looks like it sat ignored in the case for a couple of decades while the pickguard deteriorated and ate the plating. Yikes! But ultimately mostly repairable. Might need new pickup covers.

[customxke]

This is why I don't keep my guitars in their cases 24-7......in a recent thread, it was implied that those of us who don't keep our guitars in their cases when not being played are less than intelligent, but this is what happens to certain guitars when in the case for extended periods.

[Chris236]

Not an awful price on that guitar although it looks like it has a crack in the upper bout in addition to the cosmetic things.

I guess there are advantages and disadvantages to either leaving the guitar out or casing it in the end. If I start thinking of casing a guitar it usually ends up on the auction block.

[Max405]

This is why I don't keep my guitars in their cases 24-7......in a recent thread, it was implied that those of us who don't keep our guitars in their cases when not being played are less than intelligent, but this is what happens to certain guitars when in the case for extended periods.

I'd like to think, we just like looking at what we got!
It really is a shame to see guitars that some good honest people thought of as an investment, can just destroy themselves like this - inside of there own "protective" cases.
You know, a company that didn't take their customers for granted, would have put out an announcement about something like this. Telling customers any guitar that has a pickguard on such and such model purchased between the years xxxx thru xxxx should consider switching out there pickguards. Original owners are still covered under the lifetime warranty, but sebsequent owners can purchase a replacement here.. bla, bla, bla..
Unfortunately, that will never happen.
Shame.
The alternative is.. Play the crap out of them. And hang them on the inside of glass cases!
JD

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Original owners are still covered under the lifetime warranty

I never even thought about that. I wonder if Gibson will consider this a defect in materials or workmanship and cover or provide repairs for such damage under the warranty. Has anybody ever tried?

I suspect that they'd claim it's the owner's responsibility because the damage could have been prevented or minimized by just opening the case more frequently and looking at the guitar when the guard was in the early stages of decomposition. Their other argument could be that this is normal wear and tear because materials break down over time.

[wintermoon]

I wonder if Gibson will consider this a defect in materials or workmanship and cover or provide repairs for such damage under the warranty.

to answer in a short sentence, not a snowball's chance in hell
ps I know of a guy that tried and they basically laughed at him

[wintermoon]

the initial one I posted isn't good but it coulda been worse.
much worse......

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

to answer in a short sentence, not a snowball's chance in hell
ps I know of a guy that tried and they basically laughed at him

That's what I expected. I wonder how long they kept using those guards after it became known to them that this would happen.

[wintermoon]

That's what I expected. I wonder how long they kept using those guards after it became known to them that this would happen.

they've never stopped.
I've seen guards made in the last 10-15 years that are shot.
the problem is no one has been able to really get the cool swirl pattern the nitro the old guards are made of correct.
even the material Gibson is currently using is way too transparent and doesn't look very good, they should probably just use something else until they figure out a substitute material. you'd think in this day and age someone would have figured it out, but nope.
here's a pic of what that offgassed Gibson Trini Lopez l posted above looked like initially....

[TAA]

I had a 1967 Johnny Smith single pickup on my 1967 L-5C, ordered from the factory that way. In 1971 I sent it back to the factory to have a single humbucking pickup installed. The original JS parts were returned to me along with the updated guitar.

The JS parts were put in storage in a wooden foot locker in our yard shed. I discovered the parts a couple weeks ago, only 52-years old!

Tom

[QAman]

It’s nitric acid.

This has a lot of info on celluloid.

https://cool.culturalheritage.org/ja...30-02-003.html


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Great information Chuck - thanks for posting. Since Sodium Hydroxide is used to neutralize Nitric Acid, I'm wondering if a small bar of soap containing Lye( commercial name for Sodium Hydroxide) - placed in a small container with holes - might help neutralize gasses within a guitar case. This would have to be placed out of the case pocket.



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[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Since Sodium Hydroxide is used to neutralize Nitric Acid, I'm wondering if a small bar of soap containing Lye( commercial name for Sodium Hydroxide) - placed in a small container with holes - might help neutralize gasses within a guitar case.

As I recall, there's glycerin in most commercial soaps. Nitric acid + glycerin = nitroglycerin. I doubt that there's enough of either in a piece of bar soap and a case enclosing a deteriorating guard to make more than trace amounts if any, but just sticking a soap bar in the case probably wouldn't do much anyway. If you did this, you'd have to keep the soap wet to get a reaction and it'd have to be down where the fumes are being generated since there's no air circulation in the closed case. A solution of sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate in water would be a better substance for neutralizing nitric acid, but I wouldn't try this in a guitar case. It was the recommended way to neutralize nitric acid if it spilled in the lab when I was a chemistry major in college 60 years ago.

Since the reaction seems to be confined to the area around the offending material (e.g. pickguards affect the pickups and hardware close by on the body of the guitar), I suspect that the fumes don't spread all the way up to the headstock anyway. I've seen old plastic tuning buttons shrink and break down from outgassing, but I've never seen tuning machines corroded by fumes from a pickguard. So putting a bar of soap or a small container with some baking soda solution in it under the headstock wouldn't help the pickguard problem anyway.

[QAman]

As I recall, there's glycerin in most commercial soaps. Nitric acid + glycerin = nitroglycerin. I doubt that there's enough of either in a piece of bar soap and a case enclosing a deteriorating guard to make more than trace amounts if any, but just sticking a soap bar in the case probably wouldn't do much anyway. If you did this, you'd have to keep the soap wet to get a reaction and it'd have to be down where the fumes are being generated since there's no air circulation in the closed case. A solution of sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate in water would be a better substance for neutralizing nitric acid, but I wouldn't try this in a guitar case. It was the recommended way to neutralize nitric acid if it spilled in the lab when I was a chemistry major in college 60 years ago.

Since the reaction seems to be confined to the area around the offending material (e.g. pickguards affect the pickups and hardware close by on the body of the guitar), I suspect that the fumes don't spread all the way up to the headstock anyway. I've seen old plastic tuning buttons shrink and break down from outgassing, but I've never seen tuning machines corroded by fumes from a pickguard. So putting a bar of soap or a small container with some baking soda solution in it under the headstock wouldn't help the pickguard problem anyway.

Great viewpoints - thanks for adding your knowledge base, much appreciated. It would be great to find a non harmful way to neutralize the off gas - since it seems inevitable by design.

I just noticed the high e string on my 70's L5 starting to corrode, so I took guitar out of the case, pulled pickguard and gave it to Cris Mirabella for a repro- then aired out the case for few weeks.

If this is the worst inconvenience we have to deal with - its really not so bad. You just need to pay attention to your guitars and act accordingly.

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[wintermoon]

As I recall, there's glycerin in most commercial soaps. Nitric acid + glycerin = nitroglycerin. I doubt that there's enough of either in a piece of bar soap and a case enclosing a deteriorating guard to make more than trace amounts if any, but just sticking a soap bar in the case probably wouldn't do much anyway. If you did this, you'd have to keep the soap wet to get a reaction and it'd have to be down where the fumes are being generated since there's no air circulation in the closed case. A solution of sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate in water would be a better substance for neutralizing nitric acid, but I wouldn't try this in a guitar case. It was the recommended way to neutralize nitric acid if it spilled in the lab when I was a chemistry major in college 60 years ago.

Since the reaction seems to be confined to the area around the offending material (e.g. pickguards affect the pickups and hardware close by on the body of the guitar), I suspect that the fumes don't spread all the way up to the headstock anyway. I've seen old plastic tuning buttons shrink and break down from outgassing, but I've never seen tuning machines corroded by fumes from a pickguard. So putting a bar of soap or a small container with some baking soda solution in it under the headstock wouldn't help the pickguard problem anyway.

I've seen the fumes travel to the entire guitar. not so much in corroded tuners but I've seen many that had the gold plating considerably dulled by the fumes.
the plastic rot frequently begins where the pickguard block and reinforcing strips are attached to the guard, obviously related to what ever glue they were using then.
one of the main culprits in nitro deterioration is moisture so that should be avoided. reading the link TRM posted in #6 under "physical degradation" confirms this [excellent article btw]

[TAA]

In #16 above, I’m thinking of having the JS pickup installed on my L-5 along with a new pickguard. I’ve attempted to sand out the damage on the underside of the pickup, the edge of the pickup cover and a few spots on the U-bracket. It would be difficult to un-solder the two places on the underside of the pickup so the cover and U-bracket could be separated and the cover replated.

Question….if all of the green and red damage cannot be sanded out 100%, would their residue continue the corrosion process, in the absence of the offending pickguard?

Thanks!

Tom

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I just noticed the high e string on my 70's L5 starting to corrode, so I took guitar out of the case, pulled pickguard and gave it to Cris Mirabella for a repro- then aired out the case for few weeks.

I can't help but wonder if there's enough acid in the case lining to do further damage. I've never done anything to a case but brush the interior and vacuum it out, so I have no idea if you can wet it without causing permanent damage. I just looked at a bunch of websites about cleaning the inside of a hard case, and they all involve wetting the lining with something - so it's probably OK. But I'd buy a new case before I'd risk leaving any residue in it that could later harm the guitar.

If it won't damage the lining, you could try lightly spraying a very dilute solution of sodium carbonate aka "washing soda" (maybe a teaspoon in a quart of water) on the lining and letting it sit open for 24 hours. Then brush it gently with a soft sponge and vacuum it gently but thoroughly with a "dustbuster" or similar hand held vacuum. But I'd get a new case if it were mine. If there was enough acid fume to visibly damage any metal on the guitar, it's been there a good while and is probably in at least some area of the lining.

[wintermoon]

In #16 above, I’m thinking of having the JS pickup installed on my L-5 along with a new pickguard. I’ve attempted to sand out the damage on the underside of the pickup, the edge of the pickup cover and a few spots on the U-bracket. It would be difficult to un-solder the two places on the underside of the pickup so the cover and U-bracket could be separated and the cover replated.

Question….if all of the green and red damage cannot be sanded out 100%, would their residue continue the corrosion process, in the absence of the offending pickguard?

Thanks!

Tom

you'll be fine Tom, especially since the pickup has been seperated from the guitar and case

[wintermoon]

Great viewpoints - thanks for adding your knowledge base, much appreciated. It would be great to find a non harmful way to neutralize the off gas - since it seems inevitable by design.

I just noticed the high e string on my 70's L5 starting to corrode, so I took guitar out of the case, pulled pickguard and gave it to Cris Mirabella for a repro- then aired out the case for few weeks.

If this is the worst inconvenience we have to deal with - its really not so bad. You just need to pay attention to your guitars and act accordingly.

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if you're just noticing the string corrosion you might be ok as far as the case is concerned. but when a bad guard is left in the case for a long time, yes, the case, especially the lid can absorb the fumes and every time you pull the guitar out it might have corroded strings in that area.

[QAman]

Wintermoon/ Nevershouldhavesoldit,

The hardware on my L5 looks fine. Even the pickguard looks good, but I see the degradation beginning underneath where the felt block is attached. Also, slight corrosion on mounting bracket - underside only. The guitar does exhibit a mild discoloration, but nothing that worries me.

I just noticed it recently - so it's likely just starting to show evidence. I'm not quite ready to change out the original Gibson case. This is a 76' Natual L5 purely acoustic - in dead mint condition, even the case is immaculate. It has an enormous acoustic voice with a beautiful nature reverb.

I'll try giving the case a mild cleaning as recommended.

Thanks guys.

I'll attach a couple of pics of guitar- anything which appears like a mark or scratch is just light reflections. This guitar came from a collector in the Nashville area - it was unplayed when I acquired it last year.







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