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Hi !
Everyone talks about guitars : archtop, semi-hollow, solid body...
I've got several guitars now, there is something I notice when I try them and others.
Sometimes some complain about a lack of sustain when it's about archtop, bad sound of a solid body (that's not my opinion).
Everyone talks about guitars and strings, sometimes amps.
I think nobody talks enough about EQ, I really think it's the most important thing before the type of guitars, pickups and strings.
What you're opinion about that ? I'm not talking about recording and mastering but something in a live context.
That's my thing now because a lot of people listen with their eyes instead of their ears.
I usually play without a bassist since I play the 7 string guitar (solid body) but these days I'm replacing other guitarists and they prefer my archtop because it's an archtop and it's only got 6 strings.
I had to create another bank on my Line6 in order to find the qualities I like on the solid body.
That's funny, the other bank is for the solid body and sounds warm and woody, when I plug the archtop into that bank I really don't like the sound, the high E string slaps without sustain.
I had to modify the EQ (other bank or channel) and found what I wanted with the archtop.
My goal is to have the same sound with both guitars !
I'm not so far !
Not really in the topic, yesterday I tried an ESP LTD with active pickups, 9-42 string set, it was phenomenal !
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07-13-2023 08:09 AM
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The whole point of the eq is to adapt your gear to your guitar and playing, get you as close to your desired sound as possible, and then when playing live manage the sound of the room. It's useful to learn to hear what each eq band does (especially if using more complicated eq like more bands or a parametric one), so you can adapt to the room. Because every place will need more or less different equing.
It's also crucial to have an understanding of common things in handling sound in gigs, feedback, amp placement, using an amp stand or tilt or floor, distance from walls, where the amp is pointing and how good you hear it. What to do when limited space makes you compromise, etc ..
I don't think you can ever have a solid body and an archtop behave the same way live, but they can both play jazz. If really into effects, try a compressor that can modify the attack time, and delay the initial attack of the solid body a few mls. Then the hollow body knock begins to appear, but of course not every one likes playing with compressors..
For eq, generally with hollow bodies you want to be careful with bass and lower mids. With solid bodies you can pretty much do whatever you like if it sounds good to you ..!
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Basically this is my EQ
Originally Posted by Alter
Solid body (round wound strings)
High : 0-10 %
Mid : 75-100 %
Bass : 20-40 %
Archtop (flatwound strings)
High : 30-40 %
Mid : 60-75 %
Bass : 25-40 %
Notice, it seems to be a flat EQ, maybe it has too much bass.
I didn't play it that much in a live situation, I will tell you.
On the archtop I sometimes play on both pickups.
On the solid body (7 string guitar) I only play the neck pickup except when I only play the bass but I usually play the bass and the chords.
Wait wait... I sometimes use the bridge pickup for distortion or when I completely roll off the tone knob (a very modern sound like a kind of electric piano-organ).
Difficult to talk about something I play.
I forgot ! The amp emulates an AC30, it's what is written.
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I bought an empress EQ para once and spend hours fine tuning my tone to get the absolute best sound.
The moment I took that pedal and amp to a gig, the room had changed and now I found myself having to spend ages resetting it, to get 'that' sound back.
Then when I took the gear home, I set my amp up in a different corner of the room and the window was slightly open and the sky was a little cloudy, so I had to set it all up again.
When I discovered that people enjoy the taste of food more, depending on the colour of the plate, I realised that a lot of subjective stuff was too vague or open to so many variables and thus wasn't;t worth worrying about.
It is fun to do though.
The 80/20 rule is a good philosophy.Last edited by Archie; 07-13-2023 at 03:28 PM.
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You're funny ! Originally Posted by Archie
Yes, you're right.
I live in a house not in an apartment, when I try the sound I play like if I were playing live. I want a relatively clean sound, with a lot of medium, I avoid extra noise that makes vibrate too much windows, I also avoid too high frequencies that let think you'll be heard but you won't cut in the mix with disturbing high frequencies (banjo, dreadnought sound or something like that).
I usually play outside, when I'm playing with bands (duet, trio, sometimes quartet), I realize I wasn't so far from the reality.
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I found the best way to get nice round trebles that didn't sound shrill or what I call 'grating', is to stay as far away from Fender amps as possible. Originally Posted by Lionelsax
For tube amps, Two Rocks and Tone Kings have great trebles but they are expensive.
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Hey ! In the Line6 there is a channel called "Twang" they say it emulates a Fender Twin, I never had a sound I like with that channel (very aggressive sound). Originally Posted by Archie
Another is called "Clean" and it's a very thin sound.
I use the one called "Blues", they say it's an AC30.
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My blues jr has a button that says “Fat” I never turn it off. I also, don’t fuss about with EQ. Originally Posted by Archie
High is at 5
mid is at 7
bass is at 3
reverb is off
I make adjustments on the guitar if I must.
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As I run the sound at my local Club as well as the Open Mic, I can agree 100% . The overwhelming majority of artists I've worked with have very little idea how their or the houses EQ works . Thankfully most are open and learn from the pointers . Small venues can be magic or hell depending on the EQ ...
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I think the combo is an acoustic instrument, it sounds good if the HP breaths well.
There is an optimum level, it's not a question of electronic even if it is but a question of how the amp reacts acoustically.
For me it's like a wind instrument without a microphone.
You had a tone in your head and you make it real, exactly the same way than a saxophone or kind of.
It's limited but efficient... I mean the sound is good when the main volume is at 33-50 % no less, no more.
If it's too loud, I can play softer (sometimes it's difficult to do), that's maybe the best musical solution or roll back something on the guitar (less natural) but not the amp.
I hate when someone wants to touch my amps, it is not a backing-track, I can play softer.
Some make the confusion between Hi Fi sound and guitar amps.
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The larger the band, the smaller the stage and the less time for set-up my concern for "my tone" is less and less important - as long as I can hear myself all is good. It's a luxury to be able to dial in this magical tone we found at home , most times we fail anyway. One has to be able to function and be inspired by the music despite in-adequate sonic surroundings, as hard as it might be at times ....
I do have a 10-band graphic eq pedal by MXR and take it with me at times- it's like an emergency band-aid/swiss army knife, a fall-back when all else fails.
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Even before EQ you've got to consider the acoustic properties of the room and the positioning of the amp. I don't understand how people can play with their amps on the floor. It's almost always a boomy mess. And if you use EQ to rectify that boominess instead of elevating the amp off the floor, you're going to unnecessarily thin the sound out. Originally Posted by Lionelsax
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Originally Posted by wzpgsr
This all largely depends on the type of amp/speaker-enclosure you're using : my BUD6 has the reflex-opening on the bottom/underside of the cab, a totally different approach than front-pointing openings or open back/half-closed cabs. Difficult to generalize here ...
Depending on the EQ unit you're using you can pretty much "hone in" onto the frequency that's problematic. Not all EQ's and cabs are created equal !
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I don't like having an amp in the air. To me, that is the thinning out of tone. I like a good covered wood stage/band shell with a rug or two and no casters on the amp/cab. I set the EQ on my Twin the same every time unless it's a low volume affair where the amp changes character below about 4 or 5 on the volume dial. Boomy bass just sounds like the bass is EQ'ed too high to begin with IME. I just don't have that problem but I also have the bass at the lowest setting already so maybe that is a factor in my experiences. Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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Not just EQ, but there are all kinds of things musicians change or futz with to get their sound. I have a Steve Morse solid body, and hated the sound but loved the neck and the weight. I looked at possible new pickup options, found a set I liked, talked to Lindy Fralin on the phone about them, but decided to see if difference in height might work better. I lowered the 2 humbuckers pickups right to the pickguard to start, and it sounded exactly how I wanted. So now it looks sort of ridiculous, but that was all it took. Saved $300
Last edited by jim777; 07-17-2023 at 02:35 PM.
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Some amps actually benefit from that extra bass response. Also, when the amp is up on a chair the sound is more direct, and often brighter (too much so). Keeping it on the floor can be a way to make it less direct and ice-picky. It really depends on the amp and the room, and even the instrument. Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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I think I understand what you're getting at, but it doesn't eliminate the effect that the room itself has on how your guitar sounds when it hits your ears: the sound waves are still interacting with the floor, walls, corners, etc. before hitting your ears. What I am talking about is probably more important in recording studio applications, but the general principal still applies to any external listening environment. Originally Posted by gitman
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All this talk about eq and people not talking about speaker size, cabinet design and dispersion. You can eq a 1x12 all you want but it’s going to sound either muffled in some parts of the room or too bright in others. There are remedies like point the amp at a wall but these are not always options.
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Just some rambling thoughts about this stuff...
Where is "The tone"?
Tone quality does not have any inherent attributes - they all emerge when measured (heard), and they will depend on the placement position of the sound source and of the listener, and will be subject to the acoustic geometry and properties of the space therein.
Sound source placement
At the musical level, a lot of issues may be cleared up by pushing the sound sources together (bass, drums, and guitar). When the source locations of the rhythm section instruments coincide (all sounding from the same location), you can see with a little thought that this causes the audience to hear the rhythm section in synchrony. A little more thought and you will realize that this extends to all the listeners in the band, too. All the sound paths like a drum hit that travels to the guitarist, who then plays a note that travels from his amp back to the drummer... and all the other multiple long sound paths, are minimized and synchronized.
This is all to suggest that spreading out the amps away from each other and away from the drummer results in blurring the sound; best to push those amps right into the drum kit.
Tone knobs
Only a handful of specialty amps use a Hi-Fi tone control system that actually adds or subtracts frequencies. All the rest use subtraction with filters only and compensate with an additional gain stage. The guitar tone knobs are also subtractive. What that means is that once frequencies are removed they can't be put back, only the relative high low balance can be adjusted with additional subtraction, and the resulting curve boosted by the dedicated gain stage... but the lost frequencies remain lost.
The flat response in the Fender tone stack is middle at maximum with bass and treble at minimum ("1-10-1").
The sound tone you expect
When playing / practicing at home one may set the amp in front of you facing head on, or turn it 30 degrees off axis, or tilt it up to the ceiling, or place it on a stand, etc... that is not the tone you will hear on stage in performance, which will sound dull and thumpy. If you adjust the amp so that I sounds right to you on stage, it will likely be too much high end and maybe too much volume for the audience. You have to have faith that the sound tone you don't hear on stage is being heard by the audience. This is difficult because the intelligibility of pitch discrimination, chord harmonies, etc. are clarified when the treble and volume are boosted. You have to learn to hear that dull thumpy tone and not adjust it.
You can imagine doing a sound check where you place yourself where the audience will be, signalling a helper on stage adjusting your settings until everything sounds perfect. Then discovering that during the first song of the show you can't hear yourself very well, the bass guitar sounds boomy and the drums are way loud. You have to trust it sounds great out from and resist boosting your treble and volume.
The sound tone you need to hear
For those of us who came to Jazz after performing other popular styles, we may find that what we minimally need to hear and discern is "more" than before. A lot of music is highly regular and redundant; only major, minor, and seventh chords, all played with roots on the guitar and bass guitar, the drums never playing triplets or syncopated, the tunes played the same way each time. In that environment one knows "everything" in advance and just needs "a sense" of the sound to be certain where they are and what is happening.
In Jazz things may be very different and listening is much more of an affair of continuously establishing, monitoring, and maintaining where you are, what is going on, and where you are going. Learning the hear and discern musical intelligibility inside the dull and thumpy stage tone helps in this regard. You learn it by doing it.
Well, I didn't mean to writing a book; hope something of it helps someone.
Last edited by pauln; 07-15-2023 at 09:50 AM.
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I wasn't talking about stadiums and big theatre with thousands of people audience, I was talking about little gigs outside, in the street.
No drums, maybe some percussion.
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I agree 100% with know the room .. my Cafe has a concrete floor, big windows down the sides and a shiny tile wall behind the bar , and is a triangular shape , with the wide part being the stage area , small and .... BRIGHT!
The softer artists do well, loud rythym sections are the nemesis. Ater 4 months of running sound there I've learned the quirks, and pass them on to the artists pre show.
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I used bass response and coupling with the floor as just one example of how the sound waves interact with the room. The larger point that I am making is that the room acoustics matter and can be accounted for by trying different amp and listening positions. Especially in small spaces like the OP is asking about, small changes in position can have a significant effect on the sound of the amp: nulls, peaks, etc. Originally Posted by John A.
A little help from ChatGPT:
The position of a sound source in a room relative to the positions of the listener, the walls, and the floor can significantly influence the listener's perceptions of the sounds. Let's consider the example of an electric guitar amp in a small club to understand this.
1. Listener's Position: The position of the listener in relation to the sound source affects the perceived volume and clarity of the sound. When the listener is closer to the amp, the sound will appear louder and more direct, potentially leading to a more intense and immersive experience. On the other hand, if the listener is farther away, the sound may be more diffuse and blended with other ambient sounds in the room.
2. Walls and Surfaces: The surfaces in the room, including the walls and the floor, play a crucial role in shaping the acoustics. Different surfaces have varying reflective properties, which can affect the perception of the sound. For example, hard, reflective surfaces like bare walls and concrete floors can cause sound reflections, leading to a longer reverberation time and a sense of spaciousness. This can enhance the perceived depth and richness of the sound. Conversely, if the room has soft, absorptive surfaces like carpeting or acoustic panels, the reflections are minimized, resulting in a drier and more focused sound.
3. Room Shape and Dimensions: The size and shape of the room also impact the perception of sound. In a small club with limited space, the dimensions and proportions of the room can influence how the sound waves interact. Certain room dimensions can create resonances or standing waves, causing certain frequencies to be emphasized or canceled out at specific locations within the room. This can result in variations in sound quality and potentially lead to "sweet spots" or areas where the sound is particularly favorable or unfavorable.
4. Directivity of the Sound Source: The directivity or dispersion pattern of the sound source, in this case, the electric guitar amp, can affect how the sound is perceived in different parts of the room. Some amps may have a narrow dispersion pattern, meaning that the sound is focused in a specific direction. As a result, the sound may be more prominent and defined in the direction the amp is facing, but weaker in other areas of the room. On the other hand, if the amp has a wider dispersion pattern, the sound will spread more evenly throughout the room, potentially providing a more balanced listening experience regardless of the listener's position.
Overall, the position of a sound source in a room relative to the listener, walls, and floor influences the perceived volume, clarity, reverberation, spatiality, and balance of the sound. Factors such as listener's distance, room acoustics, room dimensions, and the directivity of the sound source all contribute to the overall sonic experience in a specific location within the room.
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As I read it, the question is not about small spaces, it’s about infinite ones - Originally Posted by wzpgsr
This was not obvious in his first post, and I wouldn’t have thought from the rest of the thread that it’s about playing outdoors. But finally he says it clearly. Originally Posted by Lionelsax
As I see it, “little gigs outside” is a bit of an oxymoron. Playing outside is a totally different world from dealing with small space resonances, reflections, absorbent surfaces, diffusion, diffraction etc. Here’s a great paper from Berklee on differences between indoor & outdoor acoustics as applied to music.
Back in May, I was in Bath (England) enjoying the truly excellent buskers all around town. They were all using serious amplification (most either AER combos or Bose FRFR) generating high SPLs at a meter - but all that energy dissipates rapidly with distance and there are no close reflecting surfaces to send it back. One fine guitarist I posted about when we returned had his Schertler sitting on the sidewalk, set wide open, and driven by a boost pedal - but he was about to trade up to a more powerful one because his sound was too thin beyond a few feet away. He told me that he’s constantly experimenting with pedals in an effort to get a more natural sound across a wider listening area. And they all move around town every hour or so, making a stereo rig too cumbersome to manage.
Although there’s a ton of good info on sound reinforcement for outdoor performance, I’ve never seen anything published about optimizing our gear for unreinforced outdoor playing. It’s not at all the same as indoor spaces and the tricks that work in cafes don’t have the same effects outside. Inside, low frequencies are reinforced by reflection from surfaces at quarter and half wavelength intervals away. Outdoors, reflections are generated at or beyond full wavelength distances, which reduces their reinforcement and muddies the sound with phase shifts. Indoors, sound is diffused and diffracted to generate a wider and airier sound quality. Outdoors, ambience comes in the form of echoes from disparate distant surfaces. Etc etc.
Without being able to hear your gear and setup from the audience, you haven’t a clue how you sound to the audience . You simply cannot rely on what you think it sounds like from your playing position. I set up my handheld recorder on a mic stand out in the listening area before we start and listen carefully for clues to improving my sound setup. My settings are most often totally different for indoor and outdoor gigs regardless of the size of the listening areas. It’s often just trial and error.
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I'll tell you tonight how the sound was.
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Like everybody else, I hunt for better sound.
My experience is that it is the furthest thing from a straight path.
1. In my practice room, I A/B'ed a vintage Ampeg Reverberocket with a Little Jazz. A sophisticated listener could not tell them apart if I varied the EQ. That is, the EQ made a much bigger difference than which amp. On balance, I thought the LJ sounded surprisingly similar to the Ampeg.
2. I have plugged in on a gig and hated my sound. Then, by the second set the same thing sounded good. The room had filled up -- was that it, or was it just perception?
3. Just yesterday my regular band played our regular gig. None of us changed our usual gear or settings and we all thought we were playing much louder than usual. Noisier crowd than some nights. Perception or reality?
4. I had an original LB. I found it unusable. Couldn't stand the sound. But, there are excellent players on this forum who like it.
5. It's hard to do a sound check on a restaurant gig (we should work on that -- with loopers or something). And, when you can do a sound check it's usually to an empty room. Then the room fills with people and the sound changes.
The point is that there are so many variables that's it's hard to tell what's what.
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