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Hi, I’ve just joined the forum as I prepare to buy my first archtop, The Loar LH-700 VS, to learn acoustic jazz comping. I’d be grateful for advice on checking the initial set-up and that the neck angle is within acceptable margins. I want to be able to spot a ‘lemon’ straight away.
Is this done the same way as for a flat top:
- neck relief should be slightly concave;
- no twist along the neck looking down from the headstock;
- action: using either a feeler gauge and precise factory specs, or more generally a business card held under strings at the first fret and between one and two 5p coins at the 12th fret;
- neck angle: straight edge held on the fretboard to line up with the top of the bridge.
Or, are 24.75” short scale archtop strings set higher to account for possibly more string movement when strumming ?
Do archtop necks line up with the bridge top ? Or does the adjustable saddle complicate things ?
Does the floating bridge need to be a precise distance from, say the 12th fret ?
Should I adjust the saddle height to midpoint before checking action ? Then check that there is equal movement up and down either side of that midpoint on the saddle ? Have other LH-700 VS owners found a typical saddle situation ?
Once bought, I’ll let you know my experience and thoughts, and what happens when it is taken to a luthier / tech for a full set up. Regards.
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05-17-2023 05:49 AM
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If the bridge is already installed and the guitar intonates OK, it’s good. Leave it there. If you need to install it, first look to see if there are marks or discolorations in the finish to indicate where it was, then put it there and adjust for intonation as needed. If there are no marks, then position it according to scale length. Measure the distance from the edge of the nut to the center of the 12th fret. Multiply that by 2. Position the centerline of the bridge that distance from the nut and then adjust for intonation.
Originally Posted by Greenwood
Measuring action and relief and sighting the neck for straightness are the same as a with flattop. No need to move the saddle before checking. Just check the action, and if it needs adjustment, adjust it. But check and adjust relief first.
To check the neck angle, it’s best to start with the neck straight or with minimal relief. At that point, check the action. If it’s good (e.g., 4/64” treble and 5/64” bass +/- 1/64”), and the bridge still has room to be adjusted, the neck angle is good.
If the action is high, and the bridge can’t be adjusted enough to get you comfortable action, the neck angle is bad. If the action is OK but the bridge can’t be adjusted further, the neck angle is OK for now, but probably won’t stay that way. In either of those cases I’d return the guitar. In theory, you can compensate somewhat by sanding down the bridge base and/or the bottom of the saddle. But I don’t like to buy repair projects.
With Loars specifically it’s important to check the neck angle. Many of the early ones had bad neck angles and have unplayably high action with the bridge lowered all the way (an LH-600 I checked a out a few years ago before buying had this issue, and I declined to buy it).
More recently made ones are OK, though. I’m not sure when they fixed the neck angle issue, but I’d say don’t buy one that’s more than about 10 years old, and no matter what only buy from a seller who allows returns.
As far as what a luthier will do, a set-up usually means adjusting action intonation and relief, diagnosing any further issues (e.g., neck angle), and making other minor adjustments. E.g., maybe filing a high fret or two, filling a high nut or saddle slot, tightening screws here and there. It usually doesn’t include more significant repairs.Last edited by John A.; 05-17-2023 at 02:31 PM.
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I was lucky enough to purchase a used 2011 Loar700 for £505 a couple of years ago. It already had a JS style pickup installed. The seller was a more than competent player and the guitar was set up nicely (He was only selling to fund an Elferink). If it had had any issues they had all been ironed out.The bridge doesn't have a lot of downward adjustment left - 2mm max but the action is as low as I'd ever want it. Everything seems stable. It was even better when I put on Martin Monel 12s.
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Hi John and garybaldy, thanks for providing feedback, much appreciated. I feel more confident now.
I’ve noticed the Martin Monel strings recommended before. Once I’ve got the Loar, I’ll spend some time researching and choosing strings before getting the guitar properly set up. I’ve found the Freddie Green appreciation website, so will have a good look there to see what Freddie might have used. Though he was far from being a beginner ! Thanks again.
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You won't find much there about Freddie Greens choice of strings. There is mention of a few spare strings found in his guitar case after his death - and those were not the heavy gauge strings some claimed he used. He died 36 years ago and it possible that what he used is no longer available. Also note that Freddie Green's setup and playing style was highly ideosyncratic with a monstrously high action (about ½ inch at the 12th fret) so what worked for him may not work for you. I'd say that for you to sound like Freddie Green, you'd have to set up your guitar like he did - more than go for specific brands of strings etc - but then you may find the guitar unplayable due to the high action. And even if you could play the guitar with that setup, you likely wouldn't sound like him. There's more to it than the guitar and the setup. In fact setups, string choice etc. are very personal, so one generally can't draw conclusions from what others use. For a start, I suggest you try out various string types in medium gauge yourself to see what suits your own taste (roundwounds, flatwounds, bronze, stainless steel, nickel etc.). Originally Posted by Greenwood
As for the Martin Monel strings, many like them and I use them on an acoustic archtop myself but that doesn't necessarily mean that you will like them too. However, they are well made and reasonably priced (at least in Europe where I live) so they are certainly worth a try.
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I like 80/20's on an acoustic archtop. They're ridiculously bright at first, but after a few hours of hard play, they break in and warm up in a way Phosphor Bronze never does to my ear.
I'm currently on a rhythm guitar kick, and I'm liking my action at about 3mm right now. On my guitar at least, higher than that and the law of diminishing returns kicks in.
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D'Addario Flattops (PB) are round strings that are ground and polished. Very nice for jazz and slide playing.
Not much to add to the above. The only Loar 700 I've played seemed very good and neck was fine. People obsess too much about the neck. If it plays and sounds good, it is good.
As far as the saddle, on all my archtops the saddle almost always fits in the midpoint of the f-holes.
Enjoy!
(BTW let me put in a plug--if you ever want to electrify it, a DeArmond RC1000 reissue is a good choice, with Schatten controls under the pickguard and a Tapastring 1/8" jack. Only 2 tiny holes along the neck, otherwise no mods.)
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Hi oldane, Mr. Beaumont and Doctor Jeff, thank you for your advice on strings. I’ll add that to my growing notes, have a good think about it and make a separate post on strings in due course.
With learning archtop guitar, I’m going to concentrate on how to provide an acoustic ‘jazz comping rhythm service’ for ensembles. So, I’m broadly thinking of strings that are the opposite of my resonant and overtone rich OM flat top strings, and more about cutting through / sitting in the right place in the mix. That’s mainly why I’ve chosen The Loar SH-700 (maple neck) over the 600 (mahogany neck) as I think the 700 may be brighter in an ensemble. Most of Freddie Green’s guitars seem to have the same wood choice as the 700, so that seems like a good sign.
Early in the process, I did wonder about the Guild A-150 with DeArmond RC1000 (it does look good on an archtop), but then decided to stick with a fully acoustic whilst learning comping. That was after briefly being tempted away by the Tiple from listening to Spirits Of Rhythm and Gypsy Jazz guitars after listening to Django Reinhardt’s Quintette.
Regards
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Hi Jwr, thank you for your private message and information about higher action, plectrum angle and muting.
I’m right at the beginning of learning archtop comping, so I am just hoping that I can get some useful basic steering from experienced forum members, feedback my own findings and let other newbies see all of this in the forum.
At the moment, I’m still thinking about things like checking over the new guitar, choosing a first set of strings, suitable plectrums, tutorial books, useful YouTube channels, buying a decent case that fits, how to find a reliable archtop tech / luthier etc.
Early days, much reading, more posts and many years of hard work to come. Regards
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