-
Thanks for that TLB. I was looking for some insider information. Interesting.
A related topic I wonder about is do ‘the best’ versions of a product get syphoned off for premier stores in the big cities, the not-quite-top-quality instruments being sent to lesser-known stores? Or is it all a crap shoot, where any store in any town might get the best?
-
06-21-2023 02:15 AM
-
Your employers didn't mind being cheated, so long as they were getting a good deal. No wonder they call it 'late capitalism'.
Originally Posted by thelostboss
I would not want to buy a guitar made in a country run by a dictator who threatens the free world, oppresses his own people, crushes dissent, ruins the environment and commits the genocide of the state's ethnic minorities. But that's just me.
-
France makes weapons, I'm French so I make weapons. Originally Posted by Litterick
-
It’s a dangerous step to assume workers act like they’re bosses, for sure.
-
Apartheid was defeated by worldwide concerted effort. South Africa was isolated economically, and so had to change.
But China provides cheap goods, so we will say nothing about the Uyghur genocide.
-
Every day I beat my wife because she has a Huawei, she's a criminal. Originally Posted by Litterick
Beating her hurts my hands. Should I kill her ?
A cousin moved to Germany, she married a German and German she is now. Is she a Nazi ?
My wife is Muslim, should she wear a scarf ? What's she doing ? She's making a bomb !
Man ! Calm down ! The guys make guitars !
I've got a Gibson, it's not cheap, strings are not very centered on the neck.
Why are they so expensive ? China can make perfect guitars, do you think they employ unqualified slaves to make them ?
The Huawei is a shitty phone. I've got a Wiko it's better !
-
For Gibson guitars, something I heard there.
"Kalamazoo, des gens qui font des guitares à l'ancienne mais un peu à l'arrache, quand on voit les guitares de l'époque, les J-45 de l'après-guerre, c'est souvent fait avec les pieds mais ça sonne d'enfer !"
-
Back to the original topic of reasonably priced 7 stringers: There really does seem to be a void since the 7 string AF series went away. There are 7 stringers available that are designed for the metal crowd, and I suppose one of those might work. I like the Tele idea and I suppose I might build one in the next few years. I decided to order the Benedetto after looking for an AF 7 string in any condition on line nearly every day for about a year. I’d be able to restore it if it’s beat up or needs refretting, etc.
Benedettos aren’t cheap, but then again, the price of many decent archtops and other guitars is $2,000.00 to $3,000.00 these days, so getting a Bravo line equals two to three other good guitars. I have some of those that I can unload, as I seem to gravitate toward the 7 these days. I’ll still keep a few of my sixes for rock, pop and blues as I love those genres as well. I don’t mind taking a decent guitar to a gig. I probably wouldn’t take a high end Benedetto or an original D’Angelico to any performance other than a conservatory (not that I’ll ever be let on stage there). But the guitars I have aren’t museum pieces and I insure every guitar/amp that I gig with. Homeowners won’t cover your loss if you are a professional, which by their definition is: makes money playing. Having gigged for years while I was still a law enforcement officer, I have always been very selective (out of professional necessity) on where I played, so I wasn’t too concerned about about playing in seedy joints. I still follow the same policy even though I retired from LE. I have, over the years, had over zealous patrons, drunks and dancers spill beer on my pedal board, trip over my monitor and fall into my mic stand. That’s been about the extent of the carnage. My biggest concern was always my careless bandmate in my duo. So the Benedetto will be fine and will really only cost me a few quid after I sell off some gear that now sees mostly case time. I do wish I could have found an AF series 7 though.
-
Beautiful as they are, in every way, I still clearly remember the very first thought I had when I first found out about Bob Benedetto's archtops' price tags: "Wow! Do these jazz-boxes also have heating, running water and, maybe, an elevator??" Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
-
And they do! My first 7 was an early ESP hardtail with rounded horns, thankfully (points are "a bridge too far" for me) that I still have. It was one of the first of this style that they made, and my dealer couldn't give it away to his usual customers - but he came close just to get it out of his store. This was a few years before the AF207 came out, and there were really no 7s available below luthier-built trophies at the time. The original pickups are generic Duncan HBs, the tuners are decent, and nothing has ever broken on it. I used it on a few hundred blues and jazz dates, weddings etc in the first decade or so I had it, even after getting my AF207 (which was my only archtop and a prized possession once I sold off all my 6s about 20 years ago). I started using the AF for most gigs about 10 years ago because an archtop just feels / looks / sounds right to me. I truly missed using one every time I played a solid body. Originally Posted by Zigracer
There are some decent hardtail 7s today from Ibanez and others that are fine jazz guitars with proper strings, hardware and setup. Even some of the hot pickups in them are surprisingly mellow with the volume pot(s) down a bit from wide open. My '90s Epi LP7 is another 1990s bargain 7 that I got cheap because Sam Ash couldn't give them away. These were only made for a brief period, but they now offer a Matt Heafy "signature" Epi LP7 that's pretty much the same instrument with slightly better hardware. The pickups and tuners on mine were cheap junk, so I swapped them out and it's been a great backup. I use it where "drunks and dancers" or other risks abound, and it's excellent. I suspect you can pick up a Heafy for well under $1k new and almost half of that used. It's a great choice if you need an inexpensive gigging 7.
I love my carved Eastmans and my laminated AF. I've looked at many "better" guitars - but I didn't think there was enough added benefit to justify moving to one. Even this lowly ESP is a surprisingly fine instrument:
-
Yes, my cheap 7 string guitar sounds better or not so different than some hollow bodies or archtops.
-
Not done by choice but forced by the commercial realities of the time, as I am sure many companies do - including those who have guitars and other items produced by international contractors -- not just Chinese companies. I am sure that Epiphone factored in the cost of "grey market" competition when they set up their Chinese manufacturing base. Originally Posted by Litterick
WE have no domestic manufacturer that could compete, in fact for the specific products we have no manufacturing capability. We could buy from other suppliers but generally with an inferior product at a higher price! You might be amazed at how many market leading products are made in low-cost manufacturing areas but do not disclose it. Then you might find some no-name products that are of te same standard other than wear-induced blurring of the manufacturer stamp!
Anyway can you give me a list of manufacturers whose guitars you would not buy due to concerns about the source?
Here is a partial list generated using Chat GPT; I assume you would never consider a guitar from anyone on the list?
Question to AI interface: Can you give me a list of major guitar makers who use chinese factories
Certainly! Here is a list of some major guitar makers known to use Chinese factories for manufacturing:
- Fender - Fender has a factory in China that produces various models, including some Squier series guitars.
- Gibson - Gibson has expanded its production in China and offers certain models manufactured there, such as the Epiphone series.
- Ibanez - Ibanez guitars are produced in several factories worldwide, including China, where they manufacture a range of models.
- PRS (Paul Reed Smith) - PRS has a factory in China that produces guitars at a more affordable price range compared to their core American-made models.
- Gretsch - Gretsch produces some of its more affordable models in China, alongside their higher-end offerings made in the USA.
- ESP/LTD - ESP and its subsidiary LTD have manufacturing facilities in China, where they produce a wide range of guitars.
- Schecter - Schecter guitars are produced in different countries, including China, where they manufacture various models.
- Epiphone - Epiphone, a subsidiary of Gibson, produces guitars in China, offering more budget-friendly versions of classic Gibson designs.
- Jackson - Jackson guitars are manufactured in multiple locations, including China, where they produce guitars from their more affordable series.
- Dean - Dean guitars have a factory in China where they produce guitars from their affordable lines.
Cheers, TLB
[I guess it is like NZ only relying on native-born rugby players ehh?]
{and I am biting my tongue about your last line just in case it drags me into US politics]
-
Originally Posted by thelostboss
Just to be realistic, nowadays if you want transportation that doesn't use anything made in China (or worse places) you'd probably be looking at a horse or your own feet (wearing high-end hand-made shoes). Careful though where the iron your horse walks on comes from...
-
Possibly from iron ore dug in Australia at the expense of indigenous communities, processed in China at the expense of various ethnic minorities, forged in an Indian or other south Asian furnace, packaged in an outer layer designed in Estonia, and sold as "Proudly British for 250 years". Then used to shoe the horses of European and American aristocrats! Originally Posted by RJVB
Just to be realistic, nowadays if you want transportation that doesn't use anything made in China (or worse places) you'd probably be looking at a horse or your own feet (wearing high-end hand-made shoes). Careful though where the iron your horse walks on comes from...
-
Indian could also mean the former Dutch Hoogovens, now Tata Steel ... Originally Posted by thelostboss
-
Pretty sure the leather is still sourced from someplace where employee health and wellness is not the overriding concern. I wear Berry compliant boots which is law that they have to be made in the US but I doubt the leather is tanned here... Originally Posted by RJVB
Just to be realistic, nowadays if you want transportation that doesn't use anything made in China (or worse places) you'd probably be looking at a horse or your own feet (wearing high-end hand-made shoes). Careful though where the iron your horse walks on comes from...
-
FWIW, I’m pretty sure that Horween is the sole remaining commercial leather producer in the US. They’ve been making top quality leathers of all kinds in their Chicago tannery for over 100 years. Originally Posted by DawgBone
When I want leather products, I seek those made with Horween leather and only buy something else if I can’t find what I need made from it. When I can afford it, I’ll have something made for me using it. I’ve had a few pairs of boots made for me using Horween skins over the years, the youngest of which is now 20 years old. All are still in excellent condition, including the oldest, which have been on my feet at least a day or two a week for about 40 years through rain, snow, mud, heat etc.
Unfortunately, both of the boot makers who made these for me stopped making boots over a decade ago. One now consults for the name brands and the other sells real estate. The competition was too strong, quality leathers got harder to find, and costs were driving their supply prices up and up. The same thing happened to the service I used to maintain my boots when their makers quit the business. Hmm - that kinda sounds like the business of making and maintaining excellent affordable archtops, doesn’t it?
-
Great info, thank you. Ah, Chicago used to be such a manufacturing powerhouse. Pretty sad things have gone the way they have. There is no more pride of manufacture or ownership in items built for daily life. So few items built to last a lifetime. I wish I could still get me a new Hallicrafters radio. Works of art. I think this is why Gibson and Fender are still so popular. One of a few items you can get that are made very similarly to how they used to be. Like walking back in time. Kinda like being able to walk into a car dealership today and buy a '57 chevy with fuel injection, air bags, ABS, and all the latest most up to date features. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
-
Originally Posted by thelostboss
I avoid buying products made in China whenever possible, because the Chinese state is committing genocide. It is a matter of principle. For some reason, that offends you.
Of course, your country has no manufacturing capacity. Your political and business leaders were eager to have such work done in China, so they could profit by avoiding their responsibilities towards workers and citizens. Your list of American manufacturers who have created cheap lines to maximise profit exemplifies this trend. If more of your corporations had maintained their North American manufacturing, as Rickenbacker have done, your economy would be healthier, fewer of your citizens would be destitute, and the People's Republic of China would not be in such a strong position.
The All Blacks are not my concern and have no relevance whatsoever to this conversation.
-
Originally Posted by RJVB
Just to be realistic, nowadays if you want transportation that doesn't use anything made in China (or worse places) you'd probably be looking at a horse or your own feet (wearing high-end hand-made shoes). Careful though where the iron your horse walks on comes from...
If you can afford the initial expense, buying hand-made shoes is economical in the long run. My shoes, made in Kettering and Northampton in England, have lasted for years, with occasional repairs. And it is comforting to know they were made by adults in workshops, not children in sweat shops.
-
100% on the money, agreed, and I do the same thing. The problem is it's mostly unavoidable now unless you live in a tent or cave off grid and only buy the absolutely necessary items, and pay top dollar for higher quality stuff. In the 90's china mostly made cheap toys, trinkets, and figurines for those coin machines at the front of k-mart. Now just about everything sold here is made there. I've actually had a few items marked "Made in China from cotton proudly grown in the USA". Proud of what? Pride is a vice, not a virtue. Originally Posted by Litterick
There are actually people here now who think that "all the best stuff is made in china". You can't reason with people like that. We been sold out, just like you said, and there is a certain sector of society here that actually thinks we are better off for it.
-
Good to see a believer in The Vimes Boots Index Originally Posted by Litterick
-
Info that's also almost a decade old by now, but when I first got interested in getting a pair of "real" western boots and treated myself to a tritan dive on the subject I learned that there are still artisan boot makers in Texas. They were evidently way out of budget for me (plus I didn't even know if such boots would be suitable for me). Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
That said, I've learned that it's probably more expensive even on the long run to buy quality, hand-made non-dress shoes because it's impossible to find cobblers who'll do the internal maintenance required after a few years. For daily walkers it's worse, the kind of terrain I walk over eats even Vibram soles (probably made in China) and is definitely not much kinder to the top leather. Sadly Decathlon discontinued the 54€ per pair, made-in-Romania fake mountain shoes that were perfect for me; in terms of cost effectiveness they couldn't be beat.
-
Many (if not most) custom shoe and boot makers will maintain their work at the same cost you’d pay a local shoe repair shop. I’ve always sent mine back to their maker for anything more than simple rubber heel replacement. I have 4 pairs of Luccheses that I had made before they stopped doing custom lasting (sometime around 1990, as I recall), and they’ve all gone back when they needed soles or other repairs. They even replaced the leather just above the backs of the heels on one pair where an unusually abrasive floor mat in my car rubbed through the surface of the right one and the blemish couldn’t be repaired. Originally Posted by RJVB
I have a very long, narrow foot and discovered long ago that western boots are more comfortable and practical for me than most other styles of footwear. And if properly maintained, they last forever. So I’ve accumulated over 20 pairs since ordering my first good ones (Fryes that weren’t custom but were available on order in my size back in the 1960s). They’re all still beautiful, and New Life Boot Repair in Custer City, Oklahoma has done a great job on my orphans when their makers stopped working. There’s also Rago Brothers in Morristown, New Jersey. They’re the authorized repair center for every high end leather goods maker you can name, and their work is as fine as their prices are reasonable.
Yes, there are still great boot makers. The founders are often long gone, but you can still get fabulous bespoke boots from legendary shops like JB Hill, who was the D’Angelico of boots. But there are also many small local shops making great ones at less cost. I found Bo Riddle (Nashville) when he was up and coming, and he made me a pair of navy blue kangaroo skin boots in 1994 (for about half of what the big guys charged) that are truly beautiful and fit like a second skin. I have a gorgeous pair from Little Dave Viers (Livingston, Montana) in which he inlaid my D28 and my National tricone from pictures. Ask enough people and you’ll find artisans almost everywhere who are doing great work at reasonable prices. These guys are the Dale Ungers of their craft. And some go on to be legends like Grimes, Monteleone etc.
I buy top quantity products that can be maintained and restored by their makers. Good stuff is ready to use when you get it and lasts a long time with proper maintenance by people who know how. The total cost of ownership is definitely less than replacing stuff that wears out in a few years. This is as true for clothing, shoes, etc as it is for guitars.
-
As often I feel on the wrong (?) side of a rich/poor schism
I know a small French company selling hand-made shoes made following all the right rules and principles, but I'm not about to put hundreds of € into a pair of shoes that are designed for high society.
I do have a pair of vintage, US-made ostrich Noconas from the early 90s that I bought off eBay for 1/10th of their new value, plus a recent-production pair in veal (by the time I had the funds for that extravaganza the bull-shoulder model was sold out). I wear them very rarely nowadays because I know I won't be able to get a full re-soling, or a replacement of the inner lining. My cobbler is perfectly able to do this kind of thing, but he just doesn't want to. So keep them on undoubtedly Chinese-made rubber pads and made a pair of heel protectors for driving with them. I also have a pair of Ariat Ranchers, made in China but unexpectedly resistant for everyday use outside of the heat of summer or when it's really cold (I have Crispi desert rangers and swat ankleboots for that).
Reply With Quote
Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
Today, 05:20 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos