Gibson Super 400P Quest - Advice Sought

**OzarkArchtop** · 04-30-2023, 06:22 PM

Hi y’all.

Would love any thoughts from the forum on a mission I’m on. My grandfather bought Gibson Super 400P new in 1939 or 1940 (see pictures below). When he came back from WWII, he eventually sold it, but also spoke longingly for it the rest of his life. My grandfather introduced me to guitar playing and in particular, jazz, and since he passed about 10 years ago, I’ve been on the lookout for one that is as close to his as I can find, for me to have as a memory and an amazing instrument to play at home. Since it’s not going to be cheap, I’m interested in getting as close to what he had as possible (see pictures attached) and not looking for non-cutaways or post-war versions for now. I’ve read all I can about them, including Tom Van Hoose’s book, so I know how rare they are and what I’m up against. However, I’m willing to work to for this one, as it’s an incredibly special memory of a very special person for me.

I live in a fairly place in the middle of the US (far from NY, LA, etc), so my search is mostly online and then travel to see one when located. I know that Norm’s Rare Guitars in LA has had one for a while (link here) and there is also one in Osaka, Japan at Mikki Gakki (link here). It so happens that I’m going to Japan next week for a vacation and going to see the one in Osaka. I’ve corresponded a bit with the shop and the guitar has a couple of cracks, which you can make out in the photos.

My questions:
1) I’ve never owned a vintage acoustic with a crack (am more of a electric player and the hollow bodies I own are laminate). Knowing nothing more than the photos, how much of an issue are cracks like those in a guitar like that in terms of stability? It’s already far from mint/not totally original, so I’m asking more in terms of functionality and potential for the crack to get much worse vs. the impact on the guitar’s value. I keep my guitars in a room at home and try to maintain relative humidity between 40-50% and don’t plan on taking it out of the house (ever).
2) What else should I examine on a guitar like this in person to identify anything that would be a stability/playability issue (again, vs. impact value)?
3) If I did decide to buy the one in Japan, any tips on getting it home? Have them ship it? Trying to bring it back with me on the flight?
4) Any other advice on my situation/quest?

Thanks for your thoughts in advance, everyone. I’ve learned a ton from this forum.

**TAA** · 05-01-2023, 10:02 AM

Good luck on your search!

I was in a somewhat similar situation. It was more self centered though. I used an L-5C to play gigs 1967-1978 and in 1982 sold it and my amp, getting out of “the business”. Years later I still regretted selling it.

In Sept. 2021 our “old” group had a social reunion, not to play. That lit the fire. I too am in the middle of the country, with few local places to visit to check out guitars.

So I violated one of the rules of this forum, I shopped for and eventually bought the ‘52 on line with out holding or playing it. It arrived here 1 April in 2022. In Dec. 2022 I had a floating Biltoft CC replica pickup installed. So far no regrets. (I’m waiting on acquiring an amp someday so I can enjoy it plugged in.) Maybe I’m just lucky or maybe I don’t know what I’m doing.

In my shopping I saw quite a few Wesmo’s for sale in Japan but avoided them. At the time I knew nothing about L-5’s in Japan. Was never sure that they were USA made or copies made in Japan.

In my case, I’m the grandpa but have a son and grandson that are into guitars, so I know where this L-5 will end up. Until them, I’m coaching both of them on the value, history, etc. of old Gibson archtops, as compared to the cheap solid bodies that they have. The coaching is an enjoyable task!

Hope you find what you are looking for!

Tom

**deacon Mark** · 05-01-2023, 11:40 AM

Norm's looks ok and the price is not too bad. Makes me wonder if anything else is wrong or has it been refinished. I personally would not buy a guitar like that from Japan wait till one shows up here. Norm is usually crazy high with prices I cannot figure this one out. Cracks if repaired correctly can be a non issue playing-wise and great guitars, however the market for selling them is not great. Nobody seems to want guitars with crack especially neck cracks.

**Gitterbug** · 05-01-2023, 02:00 PM

My question is: why hasn't that crack been repaired. It looks like an easy one. You're looking at this guitar for sentimental reasons, right? So collectability is less of an issue. I'm a dissident when it comes to valuation: what's wrong with a good refinish? Why is refret ok but refinish not? Both address wear and tear. And a crack professionally repaired is just part of the instrument's personal history.

**gitman** · 05-01-2023, 07:44 PM

A couple of issues you should think about and take into consideration :
- Is a later re-sale a real possibility ? If not, then an expertly refinished/repaired guitar that is structurally sound could save you a lot of money.
- Does it HAVE to be an early/extra rare Super-400P model or could you settle for a later, regular Super-400C model ?
- In case you buy in Japan let the shop box it up like for normal overseas shipping - that way you could check it at the counter and it will be safer than just with the case for transportation.
- The model at Norm's looks very shiny so I'd ask if they could black-light it to make sure it was not re-finished at some time. The pickguard is not period-correct and neither is the bridge which should be an all-rosewood affair with small triangles on the base. Check the Van Hoose book, it's all in there.

**OzarkArchtop** · 05-06-2023, 11:20 AM

Thanks, Tom! Appreciate the encouragement and love your story, as well. Speaking from the grandson perspective, you're doing a very cool thing that will be a special connection for all of you forever.

I've bought a few guitars online without having played them and likewise, have had a good experience so far, though nothing from overseas yet.

Be well & safe travels,

joe

**OzarkArchtop** · 05-06-2023, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by deacon Mark

Norm's looks ok and the price is not too bad. Makes me wonder if anything else is wrong or has it been refinished. I personally would not buy a guitar like that from Japan wait till one shows up here. Norm is usually crazy high with prices I cannot figure this one out. Cracks if repaired correctly can be a non issue playing-wise and great guitars, however the market for selling them is not great. Nobody seems to want guitars with crack especially neck cracks.

Thanks, Mark. Agreed, Norm's stuff is definitely on the high-end price-wise and I had the same curiosity about that one. I wonder if the top has sunk or something else like that. Am planning to give them a call and see what else I can learn.

**OzarkArchtop** · 05-06-2023, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Gitterbug

My question is: why hasn't that crack been repaired. It looks like an easy one. You're looking at this guitar for sentimental reasons, right? So collectability is less of an issue. I'm a dissident when it comes to valuation: what's wrong with a good refinish? Why is refret ok but refinish not? Both address wear and tear. And a crack professionally repaired is just part of the instrument's personal history.

Great question. I'll definitely get as many details on it as I can when I see it (likely with the help of Google Translate).

And yes, sentimental reasons and a desire to play it. I completely agree re: refinishing and would definitely be open to one that has been.

Thanks!

**OzarkArchtop** · 05-06-2023, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by gitman

A couple of issues you should think about and take into consideration :
- Is a later re-sale a real possibility ? If not, then an expertly refinished/repaired guitar that is structurally sound could save you a lot of money.
- Does it HAVE to be an early/extra rare Super-400P model or could you settle for a later, regular Super-400C model ?
- In case you buy in Japan let the shop box it up like for normal overseas shipping - that way you could check it at the counter and it will be safer than just with the case for transportation.
- The model at Norm's looks very shiny so I'd ask if they could black-light it to make sure it was not re-finished at some time. The pickguard is not period-correct and neither is the bridge which should be an all-rosewood affair with small triangles on the base. Check the Van Hoose book, it's all in there.

All great advice and will do. Thank you!

And regarding settling for another model, I've thought about that quite a bit. For now, I'm aiming for the 400P, if for no other reason than the thrill of the hunt and I'm not in a rush. The more I learn about these and the more I come across (or not) it does seem like a pretty steep hill to climb to find one that checks all the boxes.

**starjasmine** · 05-06-2023, 02:54 PM

Good luck. Take your time; given all the expense and risks associated with acquiring an instrument from overseas I'd wait for one to come up for sale in the US. Or if you just have to have the one in Japan now, buy a seat next to you on the airline for it. Otherwise, you'll have to sign a damage waiver and check it as baggage. I did that once with a solidbody I bought in LA and brought back home with me to N. Calif. Considering that I had owned the guitar for maybe 2 hours when I signed that waiver and checked it as baggage, that short flight was one of the longest hours of my life :-)

For a guitar with the valuation of this 400P, I'd most definitely buy a seat for it or wait till one came up for sale in the US. In addition to Norms, other reputable vintage dealers include Gruhns, Chicago Guitar Gallery and Elderly Instruments. There are others, I'm sure, that members of this forum can recommend.

HTH

SJ

**OzarkArchtop** · 12-27-2024, 04:34 PM

Hi y'all,

Thanks to everyone for some really solid advice and encouragement. I realized that I never follow-up/finished the story on this one in Japan. Got all the way to Osaka and the music shop that had the Super 400P. After a few false starts with Google Translate, I learned that they had JUST taken the guitar on a road trip to a guitar show the day before. The show wasn't for a couple days and we were heading home, so I wasn't able to see it in person and it ended up selling at the show. Glad for them, as the folks at the shop were really kind.

So, I'm still on the hunt. Aside from the one at Chicago Music Exchange, if you happen to know of a 1939-41 400P in sunburst that is for sale or someone who has one and might be open to selling, please reach out. This is my "white whale" guitar (details at the top of this thread) and will likely be the last guitar I buy for a long while.

Be well and happy holidays!

**213Cobra** · 12-27-2024, 07:53 PM

For anyone looking for a specific era and model, production vintage archtop guitar, I suggest daily visits to archtop.com and thatrhythmman.com. It's also worth contacting Joe Vinikow and Chuck Nicholson, respectively, to let them know exactly what you're looking for. Both have great sourcing networks. Joe especially has a large roster of buyers and sellers from whom your white whale Gibson might be pried from. I've bought three archtops in the last 30 days from the two of them, that I didn't expect to readily find. -Phil

**OzarkArchtop** · 12-27-2024, 11:06 PM

Thanks! Those sites are definitely on my daily check list, among others. Good suggestion to reach out to those folks. Will do.

**jads57** · 12-27-2024, 11:20 PM

Try Peter Wagner at Lavonne Music Savage,Minnesota (952)890-7288 He’s owned a number of these beauties. If he doesn’t have one,he’ll know who does!

**OzarkArchtop** · 12-28-2024, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

Try Peter Wagner at Lavonne Music Savage,Minnesota (952)890-7288 He’s owned a number of these beauties. If he doesn’t have one,he’ll know who does!

Thanks & will do!

**andrew** · 12-28-2024, 04:24 PM

Did you ever do any investigating about the one at Norm's?

**OzarkArchtop** · 01-03-2025, 10:13 AM

Thanks for the reply. I did. I played it a few years ago when I was in LA. At the time, I wasn't as aware of how rare they were (he also had another, pristine one that has since sold) so I didn't pull the trigger as I thought there might be others out there in better shape (that one has a bit of a sunken top). It was on Norm's site for over five year. I think that, while it's certainly rare, there doesn't seem to be a large (or growing) market for vintage Super 400s and especially ones that have some damage and unoriginal parts.

Interestingly, that same guitar popped up on Chicago Music Exchange's website about a year ago. It's easy to spot, as the truss rod cover has a name on it ("Cal Vernon"). Oddly, it's still listed on Norm's site and his Reverb, as well as CME's website and their Reverb account and I confirmed that it's physically at CME. Not sure if Norm is consigning it, did a trade with CME or they bought it, or what the story was (CME wouldn't elaborate on it).

So, that hunt continues, and honestly, I'm really enjoying all that I'm learning about both the instruments but also about the interesting people who are also interested and knowledgeable about them.

**wintermoon** · 01-03-2025, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by OzarkArchtop

Thanks for the reply. I did. I played it a few years ago when I was in LA. At the time, I wasn't as aware of how rare they were (he also had another, pristine one that has since sold) so I didn't pull the trigger as I thought there might be others out there in better shape (that one has a bit of a sunken top). It was on Norm's site for over five year. I think that, while it's certainly rare, there doesn't seem to be a large (or growing) market for vintage Super 400s and especially ones that have some damage and unoriginal parts. Interestingly, that same guitar popped up on Chicago Music Exchange's website about a year ago. It's easy to spot, as the truss rod cover has a name on it ("Cal Vernon"). Oddly, it's still listed on Norm's site and his Reverb, as well as CME's website and their Reverb account and I confirmed that it's physically at CME. Not sure if Norm is consigning it, did a trade with CME or they bought it, or what the story was (CME wouldn't elaborate on it). So, that hunt continues, and honestly, I'm really enjoying all that I'm learning about both the instruments but also about the interesting people who are also interested and knowledgeable about them.

Keep in mind that '39 Gibson tops are carved w 'humps' @ in the area @ the end of the fingerboard and under the tailpiece area and look flat where the bridge sits, so what may seem like top sink isn't top sink.