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Good info, I kinda want to check out a newer one from the custom shop.
Someone tell me if this is right, please add corrections?
L5 CES started in '53, had p90s, soon got staple pickups, then PAFs in 57
60s- had thinner nut, PAF, sharp cutaway, mostly laminate backs from 60-65, then went back to carved maple backs
68-86 are the Norlin L5 CES which had plain wood and less flaming. These still had Gibson humbuckers, a variety of Gibson Humbuckers
86-90's were Custom Shop L5 CES, and there's some notable builders like Jim Triggs. (What years are Triggs? Who are the others?)
WesMo started around 86 and is still made today.
2010's and currently they are made only if you order one, in the custom shop, as part of the Crimson line. Takes a long time to get one, like 2 years?
I looked around my area to try out a Custom Shop L5 CES, and I found that the L5 CES is getting very rare here in the US where I live. From 1953 to 2023, there's approx 10 CES for sale in the entire country. I checked reverb, ebay, Craigslist, Archtops.com. Rudy's, and Gruhn's.
I was surprised cause I always thought there were more of these around. Not one single custom shop L5 is for sale in my area. There's a 1980 CES an hour away from me, nothing else.
Savor the L5 if you have one, it's a rarity!
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05-01-2023 12:02 AM
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A couple of corrections:
Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
1) CES versions of the L5 and Super 400 were introduced in 1951 with double p90’s. The p90’s were replaced with staple pickups up a few years later, somewhere around 1953.
2) I believe Norlin acquired Gibson in late 1969, so the changes to plain maple backs etc. probably didn’t start until the early 1970’s.
3) I’m not sure when the Wes Montgomery model was introduced, but in an earlier post, Stringswinger said he thought it was around 1993.
Our resident expert, Wintermoon, will probably be able to confirm the exact dates.
Keith
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Everything relatively accurate to my knowledge though the narrow nut didn't appear until late 65.
Some carved backs around 67-mid 69.
As far as figured maple the other day I was showing a friend some pics of a mint 72 L5CES I had that was flamed to beat the band and have seen others like it from 71-73. Plain maple followed around 73-74 and continued until around 80.
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A further correction needs to be added regarding pickups. And with L-5's it is not 100 percent, but Gibson stopped making PAF's in 1962. Lots of leftover PAF's were used in L-5's after that, but at the same time the new Patent sticker pickups were used as well. To further muddy the waters, some of those early patent sticker pickups were identical to the late, short magnet PAF's and others had different wire. Around 1965 T-tops appeared, but once again, L-5's may have the T-tops or PAF's or early Patent sticker pickups depending on what pickups were grabbed from the box (back then the fetish for PAF pickups was not in full gear).
To further confuse things, many Gibson from the late 50's through the late 60's no longer have their original pickups. The value of PAF's and early patent sticker (and to some extent patent sticker T-tops) has caused many original pickups to disappear from archtops to find their way into Les Pauls, SGs and 335s. Buying vintage guitars is a minefield. Be careful!
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I am sure this will sound naive to the real vintage aficionados around here, but here goes...
To me, the best is the one, when you pick it up to play, you realize how privileged you are to have such a guitar in your hands. I feel that every time I pick up my Gibson Citation. Though I have not played a lot of the fine archtops discussed here, it seems to me that L5, Byrdland, and others from Gibson in that realm would certainly give me that sense. When you find that in a guitar, never let that guitar go (well, you do have to eat, sleep, and other functions to stay alive, but never sell that special guitar).
Tony
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Gibson should read this post and consider making them again.
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Maybe someone with a decent Gibson connection should send them a link and a wink!
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I’m very interested in the upgrade you’ve made: would you please you give further information about the 500k pot and about the seth lover pick-up? Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
what do they bring to your tone?
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I'm guessing very few people have the money for these. New ones are what like 15K? Most guitarists play rock and blues, not jazz. Out of the jazz guys who like the L5 a lot of people want an old vintage one or a a cheaper Norlin version. But if you really want a new one they will make it. Wonder how many orders they get per year. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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Gibson halted ALL archtop production and will take no orders. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
Yes they are pricey but not a whole lot more than any hand made archtop.
My 2022 L-5 was $9K (black is now a $600 up charge over VSB).
My 2023 Byrdland was $7K. A plywood Sadowsky is $6K.
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I think that if my wife knew you were posting these kinds of pictures around here, she would forbid me from ever visiting this site.
TonyLast edited by tbeltrans; 05-02-2023 at 03:33 PM.
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I had a late 70s Norlin era CES that was a great guitar. I really think it's about the specific guitar and not so much the time period. I had a 1956 ES-175 and now own a 1969/70. I like the newer one better.
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No doubt, people assume the more vintage the better. Originally Posted by RobbieAG
I own three ES-175's. A 1997 ES-175DN, a 2017 "Figured" ES-175DN and a 2017 59RI ES-175DN
In the past I owned the following:
1963 ES-175D
1967 ES-175
1970 ES-175D
1977ES-175D
1982ES-175D
2008ES-175D
I did not love the 1963 or the1967 or the 2008 (I actually disliked that one) and am OK with the fact that they are gone. I miss all three of the Norlin examples. They were all stellar and I have some regrets about selling them, though having three stellar examples in the harem helps me face the loss.
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But that was always the case. Most people don’t play jazz or archtops. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
And no, the retail price was around $12.5K, Legrand around $14K. Then multiply that by 0.725 and you have your real price. That has also been the case - back to the 70s, at least. Makes people think they’re getting a deal.Last edited by Jazzjourney4Eva; 05-03-2023 at 12:18 AM.
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True, but wasn't that just as true 30 years ago? Besides most people don't wear an Omega, either, or for that matter, use KRK speakers (cheap, yet good active speakers). Many items, expensive and cheap, get made that don't have a mass market appeal. I say honor your history, Gibson, find a way. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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Sorry for the late reply esp. since you are writing in earnest! Originally Posted by gianluca
First of all, one compares the tone one is getting to the tones either in your mind and ear, the tones of your fav guitarists, or the tones you may have experienced yourself at some time with some guitar. Maybe these are all one and the same.
So upon accepting a new instrument into your arsenal, and seeking / expecting new windows of expression, we want the best ( esp. with arch top prices and pedigree(s) )
The best guitars and players have a balanced and expressive tone. This is what we want! Recording techniques and treatments aside ...please.
So, an open, vibrant, bright if you want yet ALIVE when "toned" down tone should be the goal. No? And don't forget balance from hi's to lo's and especially the mid's.
To wrap it up... 500K pots with H'bers just let loose everything that the p/ups and guitar have to offer. I know!!!
And the Seth Lover p/ups... wow. I tried a SD '59 and that was great. But I had the SL set, so in they went. Not sorry at all.
Specifically, brighter (not overly) and responsive. What your picking hand puts in, the p/ups deliver in a balanced response.
And if you want to dial it down, there is still life in the tone, not mud and lack of expression. Plus the mids are easily controlled and understood. I mean you don't want to squash the mids either.
In summation, a livelier and better sounding guitar, one you will want to play for hours.
I hope this helps explain.
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Yeah, I agree. They should take special orders and charge whatever they want/what the market will bear, then let the market settle out. Originally Posted by m_d
I looked at Z06’s the other day. $130K - PLUS - $50K upcharge to the dealer. Supply and demand. I said nah, regular C8 Vette will do it for me. Goes almost 200 anyway. That $50K upcharge for the Z06? It won’t last, and those who pay it probably won’t get their money back (but they don’t need it, and don’t care).
It all comes out in the wash.Last edited by Jazzjourney4Eva; 05-04-2023 at 10:08 PM.
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Thank Goodness Mark Campellone is still building great Gibson Style Archtops at reasonable prices!
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thank you very much. Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
I’m not aware about pots so I assume that 500k return a wider tone…
what are the stock pots on an L5?
and, is any clip of your tone available?
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Great info and wow I love those guitars in the pictures.
9K is not bad for a brand new L5. Someone tell me why 2010-current L5s are like 15K when they pop up on Reverb?
I read up on the "no more archtops" thing and it's unclear what will happen. They are 3 years back ordered on these. So the guitars are actually still popular and people will pay. I guess I was wrong thinking people don't have the cash for these. For whatever reason they actually can't keep up with the demand, so they stopped taking new orders. Does that mean they will never make them again? Hard to say. Please weigh in if you have info.
I would think their demand would be going down as people opt for more hand made luthier guitars. Perhaps not. Seems the overall demand for archtops is going up. Lots of people want vintage, 3 year wait for a new Gibson, luthiers all have wait times, and lots of people are buying cheaper Eastman and Korean'Gelico guitars.
Soon this website will be bigger than TikTok.
Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Gibson halted ALL archtop production and will take no orders.
Yes they are pricey but not a whole lot more than any hand made archtop.
My 2022 L-5 was $9K (black is now a $600 up charge over VSB).
My 2023 Byrdland was $7K. A plywood Sadowsky is $6K.
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Because they're on pause from Gibson, and Henry built some beautiful specimens. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
So, why not ask $15K? As a friend of mine in college used to say "all they can do is say no". (He was referring to a slightly different topic, but it still applies.)
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I will say the 2 new Gibson archtops I bought are stellar examples so they still have the talent to make them.
Trust me a gloss black archtop will show every flaw far more then blonde or VSB will.
Black used to be the economy color on their archtops and now it is a up charge like natural is.
I asked Mark Campellone to build me a black archtop and he really didn’t want to do it. Black has to be perfectly done and Gibson did me a real nice one.
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+1 on the black. My dad used to paint cars and he often said black was the most difficult. He used to say that the final final finish only looks as good as the surface under it. But….it’s very difficult to beat the looks of a clean, waxed, black car. But don’t live on a dirt road, you’ll never get to town with the car looking like it did your driveway!
Tom
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Here’s a couple of major changes to be aware of. Sometime in 1970, they raised the fingerboard/ neck joint higher which makes the bridge higher, which makes the string tension higher and not feel as easy to play as those made before that change.
Also norlin changed the pots from 500k to 300 and that definitely mellows the sound out, kind of dulls it.
I had an ‘82 L5ces and now have a ‘64ces. The 64 is built lighter and has a more tone full, beautiful pleasing sound (it also has 2 PAFs). The 82 had a thicker top and was more dull. FWIW.
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I did not know that about the fingerboard / neck joint change in 1970. Did they do that on all their archtops ( acoustics too ) or only electrics ? Any idea why they made that change ? Originally Posted by 6v6ster
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