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I was at a show and the guitarist had a Twin, even though it was overkill for the venue. It got me thinking about aesthetic vs function with my own gear.
Did I enjoy the show more because of this glorious piece of classic gear? Would I have enjoyed it any less if the guitarist had a 6” solid state amp? What about what I might want to convey when I play out?
I think of rock shows where I want to see a half stack (or more) as that is part of the whole experience. But does, or even should, it matter at jazz show?
I don’t know … and maybe even caring is a waste of time …
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04-15-2023 11:58 AM
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If it was not for all the other stuff, normal people would not know how to enjoy a performance. What a
musician hears, and a non musician experiences, is a whole lot different.
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Does it matter to whom? Rock shows target rock fans, most of whom appear to impress by appearance more easily than most jazz enthusiasts. Many of those walls of stacks were and still are empty - they’re there solely to impress. Some famous (and excellent) rock bands have played through mic’ed Champs, Deluxes etc sitting behind those empty stacks - the huge fake amps were just part of the show, and the audience never knew the difference.
Originally Posted by Campbell_jazz
Jazz gear seems to impress some of those who know what it is. But I don’t think most jazz audiences “hear” the players’ gear with their eyes.
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The roadies appreciate it ... the lightest speakers on the market. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Yes Originally Posted by Campbell_jazz
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This is actually huge issue for Hammond. Most listeners won't be able to tell the difference between a classic tonewheel Hammond and a new digital one. However most players think there's no comparison and the mojo of the tonewheels are essential. I've decided that I'll have to have both down the line. The digital is easily portable and adjustable but the 500lb tonewheel has the mojo.
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[QUOTE=Campbell_jazz;1260217
Did I enjoy the show more because of this glorious piece of classic gear? Would I have enjoyed it any less if the guitarist had a 6” solid state amp? What about what I might want to convey when I play out?
[/QUOTE]
The guitarist probably would've enjoyed it less, lol.
I think only guitarists would waste time speculating about the guitar and gear of another player during a show and correlate that to the level of enjoyment they are getting or going to get. I guess I don't really approach listening like that, even as a guitarist. I've seen guys use all kinds of gear and get solid tone although a nice Gibson humbucker guitar into a Fender amp of some sort does usually sound pretty good for blues and jazz so when I see that combo on a stage someplace I'm hoping the player will live up to the tools they brought.
I play a Twin at every venue. Not for aesthetics or nothing like that but because they are cheap, reliable, available, always have enough power, are reasonably portable, and sound good. It's a good tool for a working musician. It's very expensive to have three really good tube amps one little, one medium, and one large just to cover all the possible venue sizes and mic'ing/not mic'ing arrangements in various clubs. And then most of the time the amps sit because you get a set of regular gigs and they only require one or two of those different amps. I also don't like messing with EQ on more than one amp. Some amps look like a space shuttle to this dim guy. A Twin or other blackface fender is set and forget repeatable performance night after night. I just add an OD box if the room is that small and keep the volume down on the amp. Hey tonight I get to be on 10 tho and yeah it's nice to crank up good once in a while and make some money doing it hopefully!
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After playing with a real Hammond and Leslie for a few years, the Hammond+Leslie and Nord+monitor are a world apart for me nowadays. Many times I've been to gigs where I thought the guitar sound was awful or just mediocre, and in others where it was magnificent. No matter how minor a detail seems to be, stylistic, visual or sound related, there's gonna be some people in the audience that will take notice.. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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I agree. I think tonewheel is the pro standard while digital is a compromise. Hammond should make both, they're not mutually exclusive. I should tell Tony to tell Hammond to make tonewheels again lol.
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Tbh even at low volume I think I’d appreciate a Twin. There’s something comfortable about them.
A Marshall Plexi half stack? Look, when I was 18 I played through an original as my amp for a rock band. No, really. It was INCREDIBLY clean but fat and warm without being brittle. (Look I was 18, there was basically no internet and I had no idea about the lore or tricks for these amps.)
I couldn’t get the bloody thing to break up AT ALL. So I plugged in my £20 Guyatone distortion and it sounded IMMENSE. (Imagine what would happen to Guyatone prices if I’d happened to have been John Mayer haha.)
But I would say, I wouldn’t rule out a originally Plexi half stack as a jazz amp. A JCM800 maybe less so.
Also, I would rate a Les Paul as a jazz guitar. As a result I find it hard to imagine a firebird or an explorer would be very much different.
imagine the optics
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I've been playing a new XK5 Pro through a Leslie 3300 for about 3 years now, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that you couldn't tell the difference between it and a B3 in a "blindfold test". The XK5 is a wonderful instrument that won't go out of tune, doesn't need restoration and frequent attention to keep at its peak, and feels every bit as good to play as a B3. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I'm no stranger to the B3 - I've been playing them since I started high school over 60 years ago. I've posted recent pics here of me on B-3s at major festivals. The best ones are wonderful, but so are XK5 Pros. I'd never pick a B3 over an XK5 for a gig because I think the XK5 sounds as good, plays as well, and is much less likely to let me down during a performance.
There are miles and miles of wire in a B3. There are capacitor-based filters on each tone generator to reduce spurious harmonics - and those caps dry & degrade over time. There are suspension and stabilization systems to help the motor driven rotating systems stabilize rotational speed. They wear, loosen, stiffen, and find endless new ways to ruin a gig when given the chance. Hammond service requirements start with lubricating the innards at least once a year. I've had well restored and maintained B3s fail on me during performances, most notably at the start of the Hudson River Park Blues Festival a few years ago. It just out and died during the sound check! Before I could even get up to find the rental guys to help out, a tech came running out of the back and immediately opened it up. I didn't realize it, but the services that rent good B3s to major venues send a tech with each one because they're so trouble-prone.
I don't feel this way about digital keyboards with B3 emulators. There's a Nord sitting on top of our Hammond - it's a geat keyboard, but it's not even in the same league as the XK. I've never played a "drawbar" keyboard or MIDI module that came close to a B3. In fact, the closest I've come to a decent organ sound from a digital device is my Roland guitar synth. The B3 patches are pretty good, and it's very convincing through a serious sound system.
Mojo is a magical, mystical charm or power. For me, the mojo is in the music, not the hardware that produces it.
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aesthetic vs function? No need for such a dichotomy.
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I never wanted to be the guy who shows up with a ton of expensive gear and then can't play well enough for the situation.
I guess I figure that, if you're going to suck, you should do it on modest gear.
OTOH, some of my favorite players use fairly simple rigs. Straight to the amp or a few pedals. Some have expensive guitars (meaning say, $15,000 or more, e.g. Benedetto archtop). Others play $1500 guitars (Jack Wilkins and Yotam Silberstein both gig with the Comins GCS-1, among their other instruments).
Of course, the NYC pros may be taking gear on the subway and therefore don't want much weight, bulk or risk from a theft.
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"I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that you couldn't tell the difference between it and a B3 in a "blindfold test"
Oh, after having a real B3 and 122 in my home for years and playing forever w guys that used both I can tell the difference in a second, even w/ the dirt and key click you can dial in w newer clones. The Leslie 3300 my late organist used had a 12AX7 preamp tube that helped but i can still tell the diff..
Don't get me wrong, the newer XK5's are excellent and very reliable, but ain't nothing like the real thing baby.....
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I am still waiting to see someone play a flying V at a jazz gig. I think it would not go down to well.
We all make assumptions based on the need for our brain to think fast. The question is if we then can assay and challenge those fast judgements.
Typically it is more difficult to analyze a judgement without an education. (Education can be informal).
It becomes very difficult to challenge a judgement without an open mind.
It becomes impossible to even realize a judgement has taken place without self honesty. Self honesty is a skill everyone has to work on. It is difficult and can be a painful process.
Maybe, none that is really fundamentally important, when it comes to art. Most people do not really have a commitment to art. It is nice, or it is bad to them.
Currently art has to challenge a person, because it is inherently not that person’s outlook. (Art has functioned in many ways). My relationship to a painting of flowers, done by another person, should have some inherent tension.
When it comes to the performance aspect of music, typically musicians have wanted to meet certain assumptions. To a large extent meeting those assumptions generates more income.
My experience of musicians, are not good in comparison to other artist working in other art forms. Musicians tend to never ask themselves any difficult questions, and end up playing math games with music.
I think that is one of the reasons why some creative people end up with music as their avenue of expression. Instead of asking difficult questions about what does it mean to be human, and what the hell really happened in my childhood: they ask how do I stack these notes to get the right resolution.
I will say that other artist can become very insular and removed from society. That is one thing musicians tend to avoid. We kinda need each other.
It is true, I am painting with a wide brush. Individuals are individuals. (I love a good tautology).
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Have you ever tried playing a Flying V sitting down? Originally Posted by st.bede
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Controversial opinions: the Flying V is the most archtop sounding of all the Gibson solid bodies and real Hammond B3's only sound better at gigs if the organist owns an F-250 with a hydraulic lift gate and moves it his self.
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I’ll tell you the hardest working roadies on the planet. The guys on these tours: Originally Posted by fep
Grateful Dead Wall of Sound
Keith Emerson B3, Moog, grand piano on rotating arm
Pink Floyd tour with inflatable pigs and sheep
Rick Nielsen’s guitar tech
There are probably others I’m forgetting. ELP toured with a complete symphony in the late 70’s and lost millions of dollars. Imagine doing the stage setup for that.
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That's why I think Hammond should make both. They're not mutually exclusive. Then there would be brand new tonewheel B3s that wouldn't explode right before a gig. Some people like the portability of the XK5, some prefer the tonewheel authenticity of a real B3. I'm happy with my XK5 rig, but I can easily tell the difference when I play it. I even use a 31 band eq to improve the authenticity. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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When I started playing E guitar at the age of 16, my budget was about 150 USD in todays money. The big question was: do I spent 100 USD on a guitar and 50 USD at an amp or the other way around. I only could afford a crappy guitar and an even crappier amp. I ended up with a no name cheapest possible look alike tele and an Italian made Geloso (non grounded !!!) amp and some sort of speaker cabinet. Man, I felt great and was having fun playing in a band and to perform live. Many years passed since. Now, at the age of allmost 67, the budget is not tight anymore. I am very, very fortunate to be able to buy gear that I enjoy using day after day. I have two L5s and I use a Fender Tone Master Twin. Am I worth it? I say way no. My gear is way, way better than I am myself. A real twin would be way to heavy for me to carry around. Sometimes I think my gear is a compromise between sound, budget, needs, desires, long time wishes and practicallity (such as comfort). Most important to me is: it just feels so good to be able to use nice gear, I really enjoy and appreciate it.
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Yes in the Rick Wakeman era with the Roger Dean designed stage. Hardworking roadies.
The Dead's quippies were famous and infamous throughout the band's history and as much a part of the band as the musicians for many in the audience. The Wall of Sound... I'd love to have heard that in person. Hundreds of JBL speakers (including one tower for each of Phil's bass strings) and something nuts like 28,000-37,500 watts RMS (McIntosh power amps). 75 tons or something like that. Basically bankrupted the band because they had to have two of them leapfrogging between shows.
On the personal front I assembled my Strat and Tele myself, including designing a unique wiring harness for the Strat; I built my tweed Deluxe from a Mission Amps kit. That was fun and adds to the satisfaction of playing them plus I learned a few things. My gear is as homemade as my musical skills, I think. I also have guitars and amps made by actual professionals, as well.
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I do take pride in my vintage and non-vintage guitars, I really enjoy their aesthetics, the fine workmanship, the histories and their uniqueness but without their TONE and playability they simply wouldn't work for me as a player. Depending on the gig I perform with either an EXPENSIVE custom-built Trenier, a vintage Super-400, ES-345, or I take out a $ 1000 Warmoth Tele and a $ 600 Cordoba nylonstring. I might get a few envious stares from other guitarists in the audience or someone comes up after the show to comment on my gear but that's of no importance whatsoever. People come to hear good music and my nice tools help me with that job.
A collector will probably have a different mindset.
I know several colleagues who own some nice vintage guitars + amps and also perform with these but honestly I was never able to tell the (subtle) difference between a
REAL '52 Blackguard Tele , a REAL blackface deluxe or a REAL `59 ES-335 and their modern re-creations. (The same holds true with the Selmer MK VI tenors and the like). It's not really the point what I as a listener in the audience am hearing re this "vintage" sound, it's the feeling that the player gets when playing a good guitar/sax that responds in a special manner that only he or she can feel.
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Yes, probably the most comfortable solid body to play seated. It seems unlikely but try it. Originally Posted by Spook410
You put the V over your right thigh if you’re right handed and the fingerboard is at the perfect classic seated angle!
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Agreed — more time playing and less time thinking about these non-issues is the play.
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Isn’t that the real truth — how the gear makes the musician feel, which in turn can influence the performance.
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