Ebony fretboards - What happened?

[John A.]

What's hard about getting it going again is a limited number of people that can pay $10,000+ for a guitar, which is what it would take for a profitable Gibson archtop guitar made in America. And a more sensible program for dealers; as I understand it, the minimum purchase for a Gibson dealer at wholesale was enormous. Most music stores cannot afford to sit on tens of thousands of dollars of inventory for months or years, waiting for an archtop enthusiast to come along and buy it. There just aren't that many of us, even among jazz players anymore- I see Telecasters, Stratocasters and semi-hollow guitars more often than I see archtops on gigs.

I was looking around in a desultory fashion for a 16 inch non-cutaway arch top guitar, not seriously planning to buy one but really liking how they look. I ran across one posted from IIRC Bill Comins for $27,000. This is a limited market instrument, brand new and made in the past few years. Ken Parker archtops are something like $30,000, John Monteleone too. If they can build 'em and sell 'em, more power to 'em! They make the prices for vintage 16 inch Alphonse look pretty darn reasonable. Or the C74 Kalamazoo over in the For Sale section, which is a screaming deal.

A new Campellone is $5495. A Heritage 575 retails for $4500. An ES-335, which is not very different to manufacture from a 175 retails for around $3500. I don't think the issue is that an American company can't make an archtop that retails for less than $10k. I think Gibson just thinks that it's more prudent to devote cash and production capacity to other things. Someone with a different vision from the current owners/management may come along and do that calculation differently, but that's how it is right now.

I also think that Gibson is still not out of the woods with the quality problems that preceded the bankruptcy. I haven't played all that many post bankruptcy Gibsons, but several of the ones I have played have had glaring defects. I have a feeling they're still focusing effort and cash on sorting that stuff out before adding much to the product line.

[va3ux]

This may be of interest: Ebony Project | Taylor Guitars

I think it's important to watch the youtube series that Bob refers to in this short video. Its about ebony sourced for guitar makers and its interesting. I yhink it was Bob who started to set an example for the guitar building community several years ago by starting to accept different types and cuts ebony that previously wouldn't have considered acceptable, for the purpose of conservation.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

What's hard about getting it going again is a limited number of people that can pay $10,000+ for a guitar, which is what it would take for a profitable Gibson archtop guitar made in America. And a more sensible program for dealers; as I understand it, the minimum purchase for a Gibson dealer at wholesale was enormous. Most music stores cannot afford to sit on tens of thousands of dollars of inventory for months or years, waiting for an archtop enthusiast to come along and buy it. There just aren't that many of us, even among jazz players anymore- I see Telecasters, Stratocasters and semi-hollow guitars more often than I see archtops on gigs.

I was looking around in a desultory fashion for a 16 inch non-cutaway arch top guitar, not seriously planning to buy one but really liking how they look. I ran across one posted from IIRC Bill Comins for $27,000. This is a limited market instrument, brand new and made in the past few years. Ken Parker archtops are something like $30,000, John Monteleone too. If they can build 'em and sell 'em, more power to 'em! They make the prices for vintage 16 inch Alphonse look pretty darn reasonable. Or the C74 Kalamazoo over in the For Sale section, which is a screaming deal.

Yes, making fine archtops in the USA is not really a volume deal. It doesn't fit the Les Paul making model. But if you're making a profit selling a lot of Les Pauls and acoustic guitars, perhaps you should also be able to make some fine archtops in limited quantity. If - you want to. And you can name the price.

I don't think that a Gibson archtop price is necessarily comparable to a one-man shop price though. A one-man shop doesn't need a factory in town, employees with different skills (because they don't have end-to-end archtop skills), salaries and benefits, HR and legal departments etc.

Just something to think about when you purchase.

[vinnyv1k]

I got this new L-5 in late 2022. The board is ebony but it was dyed blacker. It was $8150 + tax. Considering a plywood Sadowsky or Borys is $6K I don’t find the carved Gibson unreasonable. Nowadays black is a upcharge. $600 more then VSB where black used to be the economy color. No more.

[TedBPhx]

Here’s my Taylor 2019 814ce Dlx, a 4K guitar I chose because it had the most fretboard striping of the 3 I examined.

[John A.]

Yes, making fine archtops in the USA is not really a volume deal. It doesn't fit the Les Paul making model. But if you're making a profit selling a lot of Les Pauls and acoustic guitars, perhaps you should also be able to make some fine archtops in limited quantity. If - you want to. And you can name the price.

I don't think that a Gibson archtop price is necessarily comparable to a one-man shop price though. A one-man shop doesn't need a factory in town, employees with different skills (because they don't have end-to-end archtop skills), salaries and benefits, HR and legal departments etc.

Just something to think about when you purchase.

A factory-scale builder has supply-chain and other economies of scale that a one-person shop doesn't have, can spread other overheads over a much greater base, and can have a degree of division of labor that allows for lower salaries than a one-person builder might be willing to pay him/herself. If you're Joe Luthier with a family to feed, kids in college etc., and want to have a decent middle-class standard of living, health insurance, and retirement savings, and you're making 5 guitars a month, your guitars are going to have to be very expensive. If you're Gibson and you want to add L5's to the catalogue, the marginal cost of doing that as a percent of the whole enterprise is probably fairly small.

[Bluedawg]

Well they didn't, it's a fact.

I remember those years. Tons of beautiful archtops at a good number of dealers, whenever one wanted. Makes on wonder what's so hard about getting it going again. A gutsy buyer, I guess.

The "Crimson" era at Gibson (2008? to 2018?) was a wonderful time for Gibson archtop lovers, but I don't think the dealers were happy about it.

They were forced to buy several very expensive high-end archtops as I recall and then they had to price them at almost half their list price to sell them. I doubt they made much money off of them.

Many of Gibson's dealers cut their ties with Gibson during that time due to the ever-increasing minimum purchase requirements.

I think there is still a market for Gibson archtops, but it was never the kind of market that could support every Gibson dealer keeping a full selection of archtops in stock and probably never will be.

If Gibson was to set up a small internal "custom" archtop shop similar to what is going on with Campellone or Benedetto and many others, I think that would work well for them.

[Bluedawg]

I have a couple of questions for those who prefer ebony: what is it about black ebony that you find desirable? The tone? The feel? Or the look? Would you still find it desirable if you knew it was an ebony substitute that had both the look and the feel of ebony? I ask because I have recently been made aware of some processed but natural wood products that supposedly do that plus are easier to work with, not as brittle and less reactive to weather shifts. It seems to me that something like that would fill all of the desirable functions without any of the considerable downsides of ebony.

I would say it's mainly tradition and history ... a '58 L5 had ebony so my new L5 has to have it, too.

Personally, I wouldn't mind some other materials,

But in the back of my mind would be the nagging question of how it would affect resale since so many people would still rather have real ebony. Maybe that will change eventually.

[John A.]

I have a couple of questions for those who prefer ebony: what is it about black ebony that you find desirable? The tone? The feel? Or the look? Would you still find it desirable if you knew it was an ebony substitute that had both the look and the feel of ebony? I ask because I have recently been made aware of some processed but natural wood products that supposedly do that plus are easier to work with, not as brittle and less reactive to weather shifts. It seems to me that something like that would fill all of the desirable functions without any of the considerable downsides of ebony.

3 of my 4 guitars have ebony boards. But that isn’t because I prefer it (I have no preference); it just worked out that way. So I may not be the best person to answer, but I guess what I do like is the way it looks in contrast and/or complement to some other design elements.

[Jim Soloway]

3 of my 4 guitars have ebony boards. But that isn’t because I prefer it (I have no preference); it just worked out that way. So I may not be the best person to answer, but I guess what I do like is the way it looks in contrast and/or complement to some other design elements.

Thanks John. I actually had deleted my question while you were typing. I wasn't sure it was the right place to be asking the question but i appreciate the response.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

A factory-scale builder has supply-chain and other economies of scale that a one-person shop doesn't have, can spread other overheads over a much greater base, and can have a degree of division of labor that allows for lower salaries than a one-person builder might be willing to pay him/herself. If you're Joe Luthier with a family to feed, kids in college etc., and want to have a decent middle-class standard of living, health insurance, and retirement savings, and you're making 5 guitars a month, your guitars are going to have to be very expensive. If you're Gibson and you want to add L5's to the catalogue, the marginal cost of doing that as a percent of the whole enterprise is probably fairly small.

Agreed, the economies of scale consideration is valid. To know for sure of course, one would have to sharpen the pencil and put the numbers to it.

I don't know about the situation of a one-man shop builder needing to feed the wife and kids, etc. That sounds more like a narrative. (Ahh. Cue the violins!).

The other big point of course, and especially where Gibson is concerned, is brand value. That goes into pricing as well. We all know that needs no explanation where Gibby is concerned. Want a good resale price? Buy a Gibson. Want to sell it fast? Buy a Gibson.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

If Gibson was to set up a small internal "custom" archtop shop similar to what is going on with Campellone or Benedetto and many others, I think that would work well for them.

Yep, or just a custom shop like they used to have. A few big dealers would stock a few archtops. Music Zoo, Wildwood, Guitar Center Platinum gear, and a few other big shops whose names escape me at the moment. That's still only "a few" archtops, yet a heck of a lot more than are out there now.

[Bluedawg]

Yep, or just a custom shop like they used to have. A few big dealers would stock a few archtops. Music Zoo, Wildwood, Guitar Center Platinum gear, and a few other big shops whose names escape me at the moment. That's still only "a few" archtops, yet a heck of a lot more than are out there now.

I used to live in Maryland and loved to visit Chuck Levin's. They would usually have multiple L5s and several other Gibson archtops in stock back in the day.


Guitar Center still has an L5, a Le Grand, and a Birdland listed on their web site as backordered ... and Vinnyv1K received a new L5 last year. Other new L5s have shown up in Gibson's demo shop on Reverb in the last year.

I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that this means they are still quietly making their high-end archtops but are too busy filling back orders to take new orders or advertise them as available in the near future.