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Not cool to edit what I posted and re-post as a quote from me. Please retract that.
Originally Posted by Hammertone
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02-24-2023 01:44 AM
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Starting at 50k. My guess is this is more about Bob's retirement funds growing thin more than his burning desire to market a limited number of high end archtops again. A farewell/reunion tour if you will.
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wintermoon, I agree with you. I will say that when it comes to the high end archtops, Bob's best can hold their own with the best. But that is also a distinction I make with Campellone. I see a whole lot more innovation from my old friend and colleague Al Carruth and he's a relative unknown because he doesn't put the time into marketing himself; that's Benedetto's forte. Absolutely. Bob Benedetto's pioneering genius is taking a great luthier talent and imparting a mystique that triggers a lustful obsessive response that reflexively releases a $50,000 purse string. It's a true collector's item even before the first piece of wood touches the joiner. THAT's genius. Originally Posted by wintermoon
To unabashedly say "Don't buy that Jimmy D'Aquisto in Wexer's showcase, my headstock is worth more than that." Who else save for maybe the deserving Montellone, would say that? What Benedetto puts into creating mystique is the raw energy and talent that Campy puts into his builds.
Yeah, only my opinion, but I'm missing the collector gene.
Oh, Benedetto will make me a 7 string and Mark won't. Hmmm, let me check the balance in my savings account.
One commentary on the value of an instrument vs the value the market creates: Ever see the pricetag on a relatively good violin? Hell, a good bow will run you more than that new Benedetto. And $50,000 can get you a good cello, but a great cello? add a comma and two zeroes.
And yet Pat Metheny plays priceless beautiful music on a guitar you can buy at Guitar Center for 2 grand.
Is it a tool for making music or something else?
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Ooo wow. This is VERY interesting! Guitar by Daimon Mailand, tap tuning by Bob Benedetto. Originally Posted by Mark M.
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Not to disparage the boutique instruments at all, I also just find when I take down the L5ces or even the ES175... the only departures from perfection that I can detect come from the player, not the instrument. Playing those guitars is the best feeling I ever have, at least with my pants on. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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And for an additional $10k, he’ll “relic” it. You get a checked finish, yellowed chicken head knobs, Jimmy Bruno’s cigarette burns above the nut under the E string, and a repaired crack in the neck. Then he throws it on the top of a piano a hundred times to scuff up the back just like I watched Jimmy do on breaks. It even comes with a tin of nicotine-infused abrasive polish and an oil stained rag to help the tone quality mature.
But seriously folks, is this really any different from the purchase of a new 911 to drive downtown and go to work every day? It’s another luxury good that’s capable of world class performance that few of its buyers can ever use. Sadly (at least for me) most such items are bought by people who could never achieve 5% of that performance potential, don’t even know how good it really is, but somehow believe that they’re not like that.
I only met the Benedettos twice, and I came away thinking that they’re nice, decent people with whom my wife and I could be good friends if life circumstances made that possible. Nothing I’ve ever heard has changed that belief. He’s indisputably a world class luthier, and he’s forged a successful path using his knowledge, skill, experience and talent mixed in varying amounts with business savvy and sound judgment. If buyers will pay $50k and up for his guitars instead of buying what I think are more desirable alternatives (almost all of which cost less), it reflects nothing more than personal preference to which each of us is entitled.
I’d love to have a Bob-built guitar, even if his hands on involvement was limited to taps, tuning, and approving the finished product. I’ll never be a good enough player to get the most from it, and I can’t afford it. Even if I could, there are other $50k guitars I’d buy first. I hope these bring joy to those who buy them and to all who have a hand in making them.
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I have long found it ironic that actors get paid so much more than the people they portray when it comes to war movies, cop movies, and the many others who really do put their lives on the line for others in real life. It is sadly ironic that actors are worth so much more than the people who do the real life saving work that they portray. We in our culture sometimes have a very strange value system. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
I will never be in a position to purchase a guitar such as discussed by the OP, (and certainly don't hold it against those who can) but am grateful to have the experience of buying a truly nice archtop on one occasion. It was fun to purchase and even more gratifying to play it each day.
Tony
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I could never do justice to the guitars I have now, or the ones I will own, and as gorgeous as those Manhattans are, I would personally have more fun with a used Corvette with 50K. But as others have said, if I was worth $50MIL, then I would buy a couple
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When Bob B was making guitars under his own name, he didn't dare put a price on his work like this. Originally Posted by tbeltrans
When Daimon Mailand, the "master luthier" is building a regular every day Benedetto, his work alone doesn't doesn't merit this price tag.
So Daimon's work and Bob's name and touch create a magic that's beyond anything they did before.
Somebody ought to dub this special edition the Gestalt.
Hmmm, when we're honest about it, the most distinctive feature of this guitar is it's had the touch and blessing of a man who has come out of retirement.
Maybe it can be dubbed the Resurrection edition.
Bril.
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This is why people buy expensive (and most often grossly overpriced) clothes etc with a horse logo, someone else’s initials, or a color and pattern that are so objectively ugly or garish (and often both) that there’s no reason to buy other than brand recognition and the pseudostatus they think it gives them. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
Of course, name recognition and perceived image are also the reasons people hire well known bands that couldn’t swing if you tied them to a pendulum. I asked Joe Sudler (a Philly jazz legend with great players in a fantastic band) to play our son’s Bar Mitzvah party. There were those (who shall remain unidentified for my protection) who were aghast at our not hiring one of the boring in-vogue names. Joe and his band swung the cr@p out of the room on everything from big band charts to pop and rock. Everybody at the party loved them - they listened and danced from cocktails until the end, and it was a 6 hour continuous gig (which per union rules means limited to a 5 minute break per hour). But only one guest asked us for his name and number. They all continued to hire the usual overpriced big names for their own affairs.
The good news is that the expensive phonies also used great sidemen (and me). The bad news is that most only paid us union scale and pocketed the bulk of their crazy fees while letting the quality of their music choices and charts decline. The worse news is that they drove the cost of live music out of reach for even the poseurs, opened the door for DJs to take our gigs, and killed the goose that laid our breakfast for so many years.
Hmmm - that kinda sounds like the way the high end guitar business changed over the last 60 years, doesn’t it?
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Bob Benedetto must be aged 76-77.
I have a Guild Benedetto with his name tag, nice playing guitar, obviously it cost more having his name on it.
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I don't think it is fair to compare 175's and L-5's with most Benedetto guitars. Most of the L-5's that we think of are electric guitars (Wesmos and CES models) and all 175's are electric guitars. Bob Benedetto's guitars are mostly acoustic guitars (Bravos and the like came after a long period of making mainly acoustic archtop guitars).
If an acoustic archtop is your thing, a Bob built Benedetto is, IMO, a pretty strong example of the craft. I have been underwhelmed by many Benedetto guitars built by others , but the older ones built by Bob have always impressed me as excellent instruments and I would be pleased to own one (the truth is that they have always been too expensive, as in over ten grand, for me to consider). I would never consider spending 50 grand on anything other than a piece of real estate myself, so this offering is of no interest. Nor will I ever own a Monteleone or genuine D'Aquisto.
Electric archtops? I think Gibsons (at least a good example of a Gibson) rule the roost. I have played several Ibanez, Guild, Heritage, Benedetto Bravos and Bambinos and a Borys and a Holst. IMO, none of these luthier or other factory built instruments sound and play as good as the Gibsons. But that is perhaps just me, others may have a different preference.
If someone wants to buy a guitar for 50K that has been tap tuned by Bob Benedetto, that is their business. The only thing I am sure of is I doubt we will see those guitars on a bandstand anytime soon.
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The nearest situation that I can think of similar to this was a guitar that I had made with Froggy Bottom Guitars when Michael MIllard was retiring after 50 years of building in 2020. Froggy Bottom like Benedetto is a small team shop that makes about 80 guitars a year. Michael in his early mid-70s was retiring and his experienced team (Andy and Eric) who had been with him for 20-30 years were carrying on beyond his retirement. Michael chose to work on my guitar AFTER he retired in 2020. Michael's role on my guitar was 1) client discussion to help specify the guitar; 2) personally select the soundboard, back & side sets; 3) Carve the braces and tap tune the top and 4) sign the label along with the rest of his team. The guitar is NOT a "Michael Millard", but is a Froggy Bottom. I paid no more for his involvement than a standard Froggy Bottom.
Looking at the creation of an archtop (this is by no means a complete list, but it illustrates my point) it appears Bob's involvement is limited to the following:
------------------------------------------------------> $30,000---------------->$50,000
OPERATION---------------------------------Cremona by Team------Bob Benedetto
Discussion with Client on Goals------------------?---------------------------?
Selection of Woods----------------------------------X
Glue-Up Top & Back Plates-----------------------X
Rough Carving on Top & Back Plates----------X
Bracing of Top Plate---------------------------------X
Top & Back Plate Refinement--------------------------------------------------X
Install/Sign Label-------------------------------------------------------------------X
Bending of Rims-------------------------------------X
Construction of Neck and End Block----------X
Rim + Side Bracing Construction----------------X
Assemble Top & Back to Rims--------------------------------------------------X
Route, Bind & Purfle Body--------------------------------------------------------X
Final Assembled Plate Refinement---------------------------------------------X
Neck Lay-Up/Extension----------------------------X
Peghead Veneer/Decoration/Assembly-------X
Rough Neck Carve-----------------------------------X
Truss Rod Assembly--------------------------------X
Fretboard Fabrication + Inlay---------------------X
Fretboard Assembly---------------------------------X
Fret Installation (Rough)---------------------------X
Neck Profile Refinement-----------------------------------------------------------X
Neck/Body Assembly---------------------------------------------------------------X
Install Jack---------------------------------------------X
Prep for Finishing-----------------------------------X
Sealer/Nitro Finish/Drop Fill----------------------X
Buff Guitar---------------------------------------------X
Fabricate Finger Rest------------------------------X
Install Pickup & Pots--------------------------------X
Fabricate Bridge-------------------------------------X
Install Tuners-----------------------------------------X
Dress Frets--------------------------------------------X
Install Finger Rest-----------------------------------X
Install Strings/Adjust Relief/Setup--------------X
Install Strap Buttons---------------------------------X
The $50,000 is just a starting price. Depending on the requested customization, you could be spending more for woods, inlay and other custom features. To me, this limited involvement, while important to the voicing of an instrument does not equate to a guitar made by Bob Benedetto like came off his bench in his Stroudsburg shop in 1990s. Guitars are the sum of MANY operations that contribute to their look, feel and tone.
I honestly wish Bob, Howard and company the best with the project. The good news is they are being upfront and transparent as to his involvement. There are likely 10 well to do clients who will see the value proposition of this offering that will be delighted with this offering.
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Besides being a talented luther, Benedetto is a very excellent marketer. Lot's of builders are capable of making top notch, good if not great, sounding instruments. Benedetto has what few of the other builders have, and that's the smarts and panache to market. He has always, and continues to put his guitars in that hands of the best players. He has found angles to keep his name synonymous with fine guitars. He's not waiting for history to judge him and his guitars, he's placing them at the top with the greats. This is just another example of his marketing abilities. My hat is off to him for his talent.
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One of Bob's best secrets is really the elephant in the room, Cindy Benedetto! She is outgoing and always pushing Bob and his instruments. She has a wonderful personality and a very friendly with everyone. Many people think of Bob the guitar builder and that is his great treasure, but frankly he has Cindy and that is his treasure. I have no idea if she can work in the shop or even play the guitar, but she has a great sense of what is going on. Originally Posted by skiboyny
I say this because it reminds me of the late Mrs. D. She did not play the guitar but listen to them a lot. Her opinion I highly sought out and she knew a great archtop without ever playing them or working on them. Although I remember once re-fretting a guitar, I got into a particular situation and ask her to hold the guitar up while I used my drill press to punch fret in place. My guess is Cindy probably did much of that early on.
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It seems to me that an obvious implication of offering Bob's work as a premium is that without his work it's a lesser guitar. I mean seriously, for $30k (!), they're not giving us the best guitar they can? We have to spend another $20k to get the special Bob one, because the other guys don't have his magic? What happened to the years of their claiming that the company was left in good hands when he retired and what's made now is as good as when he ran the company? Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
Not that I'm considering spending $30k on a guitar in the first place, but if I were, I wouldn't spend it with a company that does this.
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No need to fret dear! This is only a drill... Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Behind each luthier's story is an even richer story of those loved ones that made it all possible. Yeah, I hear you exactly deacon Mark.
Sometimes they're pure love and sometimes we owe our lives to them. And sometimes they're just hilarious but only in retrospect.
I worked with Al Carruth in his shop in Dedham MA. One day I walked in and he was the closest I'd ever seen him to being almost livid. He was meticulously picking at the teeth of his bandsaw with tweezers, a toothbrush and rolls of paper towels. He'd been at it for hours.
"What HAPPENED?"
It turns out his wife had a huge chunk of ground beef that was frozen in a big icy block. Knowing that the butcher regularly using their band saw to cut anything in their shop, she'd taken to the band saw and made a week's worth of frozen pattys. The blade looked like a solid ribbon of fat.
I won't even TELL you what we found when we popped the casing off!
This is how a luthier defines "For better or for worse"!
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It is always hard to get past names and reputations. My guess is if you got a Benedetto from the factory you could not tell the difference but knowing Bob did all the work of course. It is the same with D'angelico's and and others. I wish I could get a blindfold test of my guitars by some of the group. It would be that they are played behind a screen and you got nothing to go on except sound. My guess is that the results might surprise all of us. I am taking about acoustic archtops because once you add electricity everything goes out the window. Even with a floating pickup. That to me is the joy of an acoustic guitar. There is no hiding, you have produce the sound with no help from an amp and clean sound that is moving and interesting is always a challenge.
If I could have Benedetto built by Bob I would want an 18 inch with his traditional 25 inch scale and 1 3/4 neck. Then I would ask that he put a metal tailpiece on the guitar in the shape of his ebony one. Then for looks he could add a wood overlay that looked like is was his usual TP but in fact anchored in metal.
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They're both mainly conspicuous consumption. But at least with cars there are measurable differences in performance capabilities. Not so with guitars, at least not once you get above a pretty low threshold in price. "Cherokee at 260 bpm on a REGULAR Benedetto? Don't even bother trying. You need a Bob-built one for that. " Not. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I doubt that a Bob-built guitar has secrets that only reveal themselves to players above some threshold of musicianship. and odds are that if you were a lot better than you are now you still might prefer something else. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Exactly, Mark Campallone is as fair of a builder as they come..
Originally Posted by Hammertone
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Most of the few guitars at that level have characteristics that enhance subtle excellence in playing. Notes have the same voice from top to bottom. Close harmonies are sounded with clear articulation of each note in the chord from pp to ff. Volume responds linearly to picking / plucking force over the full range of available notes, and the range of available volume is wider - you can add a p to pp and an f to ff. Intonation is as close to perfect as possible given the limitations of single scale length and bridge design. Originally Posted by John A.
Neck and fingerboard dimensions and profiles are made to your preferences. You get the woods, finishes, and hard parts of your choice. A better player can use all this to better advantage for better playing. Tennis pros used to use “gut” strings and they strung their rackets to higher tension than consumer rackets. I once had mine strung that way to see if it helped my play. All it did was reveal my weaknesses. If you’re accurate, pro stringing lets you use it more effectively. But it magnifies imprecision and other play errors. You have to be good enough to make the advantages work for you.
Sure there are other guitars that good for far less money and I’d almost certainly buy one instead. I actually preferred the Dale Unger archtops I’ve played to the Benedettos, and Dale actually built some of Bob’s Pennsylvania guitars with / for him when he worked in the shop. I wouldn’t be any better playing a Benedetto or an American Archtop or a Grimes than my carved Eastmans. But it’d still be cool to have one. The inspiration you get from a fabulous guitar that you truly love can help you sound and play better than you realized. It may be a 125 or a Campellone, but if it’s exactly what you like it will improve the way you sound and play while motivating you to get better, and it will help you use your unique skill set to the fullest.
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Some years ago, I had a 1970s Guild Artist Award. Sometime in the 1990s there was a Benedetto version of this at a local shop and I had the chance to play it. I didn't care for it. There was something about the feel of the guitar to me that I didn't care for, but I don't recall the specifics. It was a beautiful instrument and expensive.
My point is that whatever the guitar, however special or expensive, I have to play it and judge whether the instrument is for me based on that experience. That is why I don't buy guitars from a web site or commission a build.
When I first picked up my Gibson Citation, it really blew me away. I had never had that powerful an experience playing any guitar. Though I might have scoffed at paying that much for a guitar up until that point, with that particular guitar, I simply had to have it. Fortunately, I had recently received an inheritance and was able to afford it (I NEVER borrow to buy a guitar).
So, who knows? If I had $50k and ran across one of these and was able to play it and it affected me like my Citation, I might be one guitar richer and $50k poorer. I have learned to never say never when it comes to guitars. But I have also learned that just because everybody around me thinks a particular guitar is extra special for whatever reason, it may not be for me at all.
Tony
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The issue of commissioning > $50,000 Benedetto small shop guitar voiced by Bob should not just be considered against the Benedetto small shop, but needs to be considered in the broader context of commissioning a custom guitar handcrafted by artisans with decades of experience at their benches like John Buscarino, Mark Campellone, Bill Comins, Steve Grimes, Cris Mirabella, Ken Parker, Tom Ribbecke, Bryant Trenier, Dale Unger etc. who will build an entire instrument for far less money.
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This is very strange to me. Are we sure this is real?
A couple of years ago I was at a luthier convention. There was a panel discussion with people like Rick Turner, Dana Bourgoise, Richard Hoover, etc. Bob Benedetto was supposed to speak as well, but it was solemnly announced that he was too unwell. According to the young man sent in Bob’s place he had early onset Alzheimer’s. The panel became a bit of an eulogy for Bob.
It seems really odd to me that three years later he has announced he is personally making guitars again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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He's not actually building these guitars, he's "personalizing" some parts and someone else is doing the lion's share (90+%) of the work. But the shop is his name sake and it's a genuine Benedetto brand guitar that Bob imparted his blessings to. Originally Posted by rlrhett
Tap tuning would be a skill and activity that would be within his (even limited) abilities. I wish him the best and the best of luck in his retirement and insurance fund that the loving guitar collectors will provide for him.
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