Yes, Virginia - you can play the blues on your archtop!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Two days ago, I posted my initial experience with adding a coil split switch to the Benedetto B7 humbucker in my single pickup laminated Ibanez archtop (AF207). It was all about jazz - the SC mode is great for rhythmic comping, and it adds a bit of acoustic wood to the tone of a generally thunky archtop. But I started wondering how far into the SC spectrum I could take a single archtop with a HB - will it handle a blues gig? So I plugged it into the Rowin Dumbler pedal that sits on my recording desk and plugged that into my Blu 6 (tweeter off).

The guitar is strung with TI JS113 wound strings, a 13 E, a 17 B, and a 75 Chrome 7th string. Voice, tone and volume pots on the Dumbler were all at noon, and the Blu's EQ was flat. The tone and volume pots on the guitar were both full on. I started with the Dumbler's gain knob very low (about 7 o'clock), and I upped it about 60 degrees for each successive verse of this bland blues until it was full on by the last one. But on the last verse, I also pushed the pot and went HB for a sweeter tone. Here's the result -



Now I'm thinking about an archtop for my blues gigs. So I'm on the lookout for an Ibanez AF957 that I can use to play with string gauge, pickups etc. I have a set of builder humbuckers that came in my Raines Tele 7, so I can drop them in and add coil tap and series/parallel switching. Calling Dr Frankenstein!!

Next, I'll see how it does with the SBUS through a Toob. Do I even need O/D with the Quilter's capability? Stay tuned.....

[DawgBone]

Pretty good tone, maybe a touch dark for my tastes. I think the ideal gain level was reached somewhere in the first half of the jam, it started to get a little woofy further in. Some really nice phrasing in there. You were getting some good sustain happening as well, contributing to the vibe. Definitely blues-worthy. Just a sigh of relief from me since I don't have to get the blues police involved with your thread as I didn't see any glaring violations of blues protocol, lol.

[omphalopsychos]

I’m really digging the single coil tone you got. I’d back off the gain a little but that’s just me. Blues on an archtop with a floating pickup, don’t think you can beat that sound.

[skykomishone]

I have a single coil pu on my '44 L7 and I think it sounds great.

[Gitterbug]

Never, thanks for some of the classiest recent stuff on this Forum! (Which IMHO has lost a lot of steam vs. a few years back.)

[Jimmy blue note]

I loved T Bone walker long before I knew about Stevie Ray

As a matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, T Bone Walker was one of the artists that launched Blue Note Records.
JATP, not bad for blues on an archtop. Yeah they've been doing that for a long time- because it's solidly in the DNA of the music.

BB King in the 50's

[AllanAllen]

A 4 knob E5 is my dream Guitar.

[JazzNote]

I loved T Bone walker long before I knew about Stevie Ray

As a matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, T Bone Walker was one of the artists that launched Blue Note Records.
JATP, not bad for blues on an archtop. Yeah they've been doing that for a long time- because it's solidly in the DNA of the music.

For my ears, the pure amp driven guitarsound by T Bone or BB King or Buddy Guy, just to name a few, are by far the ultimate. No artificial gainstaging effect comes close to the purity of just a good amp with reverb, which allows for maximal personal expression. I perceive the difference between the sound of an archtop or a solid body to be far less crucial for the result than the difference created by using "artificial distortion".

[Stringswinger]

You can play blues on an archtop and jazz on a Strat.

It is the mechanic, not the tool.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I perceive the difference between the sound of an archtop or a solid body to be far less crucial for the result than the difference created by using "artificial distortion".

I think the problem with most distortion effects is that they don’t add the same kind of distortion you and I prefer. What gives classic design tube amps their smooth, bluesy sound is largely even order harmonic distortion. When output tubes are driven to the maximum current flow at which they can pass the full amplitude of the signal, they the tops and bottoms of the waveform can’t go any higher as the signal to the grid increases further. This generates mostly even order harmonics because the waveform is still rounded - it’s just squashed -



But when most solid state output devices are driven beyond that point, they sharply cut off the tops and bottoms of the waveform.



This produces mostly odd order harmonics, which add the harsh sound we don’t like. Picture a square wave or a sawtooth wave - it’s those sudden, sharp changes in the wave that cause a “spectral splash” of dissonant noise. The same thing happens when the signal voltage exceeds the devices’ ability to pass more power. And most distortion effects do the same thing, but to the input signal rather than at the output tubes where it happens “naturally”.

There are other sources of distortion in tube amps that are not duplicated in effects. Speaker cone “breakup” happens when the speaker is driven to the point at which the cone itself can’t remain rigid - the physical force of the voice coil against the cone causes it to deform slightly. This mechanical distortion causes audible distortion, which varies from speaker to speaker. This is one of the reasons that some speakers are much loved for a given tone or style.

Tube rectifiers also have a lower limit on their ability to pass voltage than SS rectifiers. So when a big signal hits it (eg guitar volume high + hard pick attack, etc) the output voltage to the power tubes drops momentarily before catching up. This is the famous tube rectifier “sag”.

All these and more make tube amps sound like they do. And the only effects that can come close to this generate the same kinds of distortion. Most do not, and those that do inject it at the input or at the effects loop and simply can’t perfectly duplicate the real thing. Line level effects that insert between the preamp and the output stage come a lot closer, which makes a separate preamp and power amp attractive.

Some O/D effects come mighty close to the real thing, like the ZenDrive, the Euphoria and the Tumnus Deluxe. Even inexpensive ones like the Hotone Grass, the Mojomojo, the J Rockett Touch, the Dumbler etc add mostly low level even order harmonics and sound pretty good at the input or loop. But none of them does it the way a “real” tube amp does. The only real positive for effects is that they do it at any volume level. There are few places in which you can crank a Twin or even a Vibrolux much beyond clean.

In a nutshell, we spent decades and dollars reducing distortion in amplifiers. Then we spent even more finding ways to put it back. But as you point out, it’s not exactly the same.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

You can play blues on an archtop and jazz on a Strat. It is the mechanic, not the tool.

For sure, for sure. But I don’t see many doing it - so I thought my experience might prompt more to try it. And with a good pickup, even a single is fine. Robben Ford did it with the neck p’up on a Super 400 - I posted this video a while back, but it’s worth a second look. He played through a Super back then, and it sure did respond to his touch. It’s soft and jazzy behind the early verses, but it’s a full tilt bloomin’ wail for his solo starting at 3:05 -

[John A.]

Duke Robillard is another archtop blues guy (though not exclusively). The tone here is pretty overdriven. I don’t know whether this is just an amp or whether it’s a pedal. One get a tone like this either way, depending on the specific gear.

At my regular jazz jam, I’m sort of the resident blues guy and I get called up to sing and play a blues blues from time to time. If I have my archtop with me, I’ll play it. The sound is good, but i have it set up with flat wounds with a wound g and a 13 on top. This kind of forces me to go more in a T-bone/jump-blues direction.

It’s certainly workable, but I prefer my strat or semi set up with 10s for the greasy bendy stuff. So on an actual blues gig or session I play one of those.

[Stringswinger]

For sure, for sure. But I don’t see many doing it - so I thought my experience might prompt more to try it.

Over the last 20 years I have played thousands of paid gigs (making a modest living) and while I have mostly done jazz gigs, I used to get the occasional blues or rock gig. For the jazz gigs, I have mostly used a 175 or L-5 (and sometimes a Gypsy guitar). For the blues/rock stuff (which I no longer do in any case as my calendar is filled with jazz gigs and those are more fun for me as I get bored easily doing pentatonic based stuff). I always brought a Strat/Lester/335. It eventually dawned on me that my guitar choices were way more important to other musicians, who expected these choices, than to audience members who care little about the guitar. These days, I use archtops and solidbody guitars on my jazz gigs. I get just as many compliments using a Strat as I do a 175 from audience members and I probably get more guys coming to the bandstand to talk about guitars if I am playing a Strat rather than a 175.

I will say that I think solid body guitars do better with lighter strings than archtops do. Solid Body guitars really shine with 10's while anything less than 11's starts to get kind of thin on an archtop. So there is that. And then there is feedback to consider. So for a fat tone with little to no feedback, if I did take a blues gig, I would probably bring a Strat and leave the archtops at home.

[ragman1]

never -

I thought the lead was a bit loud for the backing and a little too overexposed/distorted. Good playing, tho'.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Over the last 20 years I have played thousands of paid gigs (making a modest living) and while I have mostly done jazz gigs, I used to get the occasional blues or rock gig. For the jazz gigs, I have mostly used a 175 or L-5 (and sometimes a Gypsy guitar). For the blues/rock stuff (which I no longer do in any case as my calendar is filled with jazz gigs and those are more fun for me as I get bored easily doing pentatonic based stuff). I always brought a Strat/Lester/335. It eventually dawned on me that my guitar choices were way more important to other musicians, who expected these choices, than to audience members who care little about the guitar. These days, I use archtops and solidbody guitars on my jazz gigs. I get just as many compliments using a Strat as I do a 175 from audience members and I probably get more guys coming to the bandstand to talk about guitars if I am playing a Strat rather than a 175.

I will say that I think solid body guitars do better with lighter strings than archtops do. Solid Body guitars really shine with 10's while anything less than 11's starts to get kind of thin on an archtop. So there is that. And then there is feedback to consider. So for a fat tone with little to no feedback, if I did take a blues gig, I would probably bring a Strat and leave the archtops at home.

I agree with you. My default blues guitar for almost 30 years has been the Epi LP7 I got new for about $200 (back when Sam Ash first had a few made up & couldn't give them away). It's had numerous transplants, reconstructive surgeries, and such over the years, but it's almost always been strung with XL Chromes with 10/13/17 plains and a heavy Chrome single 7th (anywhere from 65 to 72, depending on what I could get on sale). Everyone in the place always wants to know what it is.



I've been playing 100+ blues dates a year for a very long time, and I've always used a solid body because I didn't want to take a better guitar to most of the joints in which you find live blues. But for the last few years (with a Covid shutdown thrown in), I've played a blues brunch every Siunday in the same club in which my jazz trio plays every Thursday night. I'd love to use an archtop for blues there, but I had a close one last Thursday that made me think twice. A guest drummer (!) managed to trip over a cymbal stand and fall onto my Ibanez ()which was in its stand at the back of the stage). Fortunately, I saw him teetering and grabbed him in time to prevent major disaster - he only managed to put a swirly on it where the soft covered end of the mic stand in front of my Vibrolux brushed against it when he knocked that over instead - and I polished that out with Virtuoso. So I'm looking for a cheap 7 string archie to use for blues. The Ibanez AFJ-957 is perfect for this if I can ever find one.

As for how boring 1-4-5 can get, there's a lot of blues that's not that at all, and I manage to stay engaged by pushing the harmonic envelope a little But truth be told, I alread started cutting back on my blues dates I got a sub for the second Sunday of every month, and I took the next 2 after that off this month. I can live with the music, but I'm losing patience with the jam that occurs after our show. That's where the truly boring stuff gets played. So I'm looking for a few more dates with my jazz trio and will probably give up all regular blues gigs by summer.

[JazzNote]

I think the problem with most distortion effects is that they don’t add the same kind of distortion you and I prefer.

I think a basically clean sound like T Bone's allows for more personal expression, while a intentionally distorted sound has tendency to lead to more mechanical action of the player. I can appreciate some clipping to appear, due to dynamics and volume, but generally dislike distortion unless it's used as creative tool e.g. the way Hendrix used it.

I recently did some experimenting with my 2003L5 plugged into a mambo to achieve an "authentic" Blues sound and came to the conclusion that it sounded best using the bridge PU and just a reverb pedal. My old Boss Bluesdriver could not improve the sound in none the settings i tried.

But i'm aware that this is a personal thing. So many players use distortion units nowadays - it's just not for me ;-)

[John A.]

I think that once you introduce that much distortion the distinction between types of guitar starts to become a lot less evident, especially with the tone rolled off like that. If you told me they was an SG, I’d believe you.

It seems to me the heavier strings in this most recent clip get a bit in the way of clean bends and blues articulations, but if you’re into it that’s all that matters.

[deacon Mark]

Once I awhile I have played at Mass in the choir/music and showed up with my 49 D'angelico New Yorker. It was a full mass and sort of a concert and no one mentioned a thing about my guitar. I say that because the band director was a guitarist and he played a flattop Takamine. he wondered if I ever used a capo. I said I never found a real use for them. He just keep moving his around depending on the tune. Personally, I was lost looking at him playing it was like trying to read TAB instead of real music on the staff.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

It seems to me the heavier strings in this most recent clip get a bit in the way of clean bends and blues articulations, but if you’re into it that’s all that matters.

You’re absolutely right, John. But I was only trying out the new coil split function. I’m not about to cut a new nut and do a fresh setup for that. The guitar is perfectly set up for jazz - TI JS113s with “real” 13 & 17 plains. When I find a decent AF957 or similar guitar, I’ll set it up with JS110s and use it for blues. But my 3 current archtops are perfect the way they are.

[Jimmy Mack]

I love playing my L5 CES on blues gigs. It just fills a room due to its fat tone - and people do notice that!

I just won't take it out of the house! to play blues gigs! Epiphones do the job just fine.