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Lately, I've been using my Little Jazz in a bunch of different places. Sometimes I really like the sound, sometimes I don't.
So, I'm trying to figure out what I can control to get consistancy.
1. It's better on the floor than on a stand or table. I prefer it flat on the floor (others don't).
2. It has a rear port so there has to be a couple of feet of open space behind it.
3. I suspect that the floor surface matters. It seems better on carpet than on a hard tile floor. But, if I wanted to carry a piece of carpet to put under it, how big a piece would I need?
4. I like it behind me and to the right, but I often can't get that arrangement on a gig. What do others do?
What am I missing?
How do people get a consistent sound? Is one amp better than another in this respect?
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01-17-2023 02:56 AM
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Two weeks ago, I moved my Princeton Reverb II and my Hiwatt Custom 7 to another room. Both amps sound better, more spacious and clear. I suspect the reason is that this new room is not full of books. I doubt I would be able to imitate the sound of the other room.
I suspect the acoustic of any room is the single most important factor preventing anyone obtaining consistency with an amp. The answer for many guitarists is a phalanx of pedals to create artificial sounds that conceal deficiencies and distract listeners.
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I suspect we are also sensitive to different frequencies on different days or something about the tone starts bothering us randomly sometimes. It could also be relative to what our ears had been subject to that day prior to playing etc.
It is entirely possible some days that you think your tone sucks but others think it's totally fine. Guitar is a messy instrument.Last edited by Tal_175; 01-17-2023 at 11:26 AM.
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Depends on the books. Encyclopedias tend to emphasize low midrange and also add some high frequency presence, so fat tone with shine on top. What crime novels do to the lows is bloody awful though.
Originally Posted by Litterick
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And cookbooks tend to be scooped. Originally Posted by Vihar
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Every room is different. That is why amps have EQ controls. A gigging guitarist needs to learn how to optimize their use. Some rooms are so dark that I find myself blending in the bridge pickup. If I am playing a new room, I always bring a two pickup guitar. The 4 band EQ of my Henriksen amps has been a blessing.
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Don't forget what sounds good or bad to you might sound completely different to someone sitting 20-30 feet away. Have you recorded yourself? You might find that the sound is very similar from that vantage despite what sounds different to your ear.
There are a lot of factors that influence sound. This time of the year I wonder what effect low humidity has on the sound.
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I have recorded myself in several of the rooms. I can hear the same issues on the recordings.
OTOH, I haven't tried putting the recorder in the back of the room on a gig. I'm afraid I'll forget to pack it up at the end.
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1. Amps always sound better on the floor without wheels or road case under it IMO. I don't use tilt back legs either. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
2. The wall material behind the port will cause you to hear it differently especially if you are in close proximity to the amp. It's good to give room between the amp and the wall if you are using an open back cab.
3. Concrete, tile, or other hard surface makes a harsh tone for the player. I would suggest a thick rug that extends 4 or 5 feet out in front of the amp and at least as wide as the amp to alleviate it some.
4. I set my amp in the same place. I'm the bandleader so I this isn't an issue for me.
I use the same settings on my Twin at every gig. Yes, there are times when it sounds bad i.e concrete floors or open back stages but what you hear being 8 to 10 feet up front on stage and what the audience hears are two different things. Trying to EQ it out usually offers very little improvement and I"m there to entertain not twiddle knobs so I just try to live with it.
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No matter what you do, you're going to hear the room. For me the positioning of the amp helps a lot. If I can place it freely I can somehow control how loud I hear it (which helps since I play small amps), and also hear a bit more of the amp and a bit less of the room.
But the sound will always be different, and you have to play the room. You learn to compensate with eq, and also to play with less than optional sound and volume sometimes.
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Reverb was invented by the Hammond Organ Company to make organs in modern churches, which were acoustically nondescript, sound as if they were in Gothic cathedrals.
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I don't understand the preference for flat on the floor with the bass rolled off to zero. If you want less bass, tilt or elevate the amp. That makes a difference in the bass response. Distance from a wall or other surface definitely affects the sound of the LJ. Sometimes an inch or two is enough for an audible difference, at least to me. I like to tilt it, about a foot or so from the wall. But everyone has a different preference, so do it however it sounds best to me. All I can say is that tilting the amp makes the sound more consistent IME. But I don't believe it's possible to get exactly the same sound in every room.
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I don't understand it either. I've tried it different ways and that's the way I get closest to the sound in my mind. I sometimes move the bass up a trifle past zero, but I never like it much higher than that. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Sometimes the sound in my mind gets distorted, or at least changed. I keep trying to find it, but find a different sound and think "Damn, that sounds good", and that replaces the sound I had in mind before I heard it. The ideal sound is a moving target for me, and what I love one day becomes not so great on another day. I can play a guitar through an amp and have it sound great, and the next day, with everything the same, all controls exactly the same, same room, absolutely nothing changed, I don't like the sound. I rotate between guitars and amps, change knobs, change strings, whatever, because the sound I hear in my head constantly changes. I don't know why that is, but maybe I'm starting to learn to live with a sound that isn't quite what I think I want to hear. I know it will change soon anyway.
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A reverb pedal that's got
- Room reverb
- Adjustable predelay
- Adjustable reverb time (tail length)
- Low and high cut (or shelves)
is a godsend.
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Another aspect of this vexing problem is that once the room fills up with people, the acoustics change seem to change completely, and the tone you were happy with earlier is gone. And when the drummer starts in, it changes yet again.
I saw a photo taken in a big recording studio back in the '60's- there were 3 (famous) studio guitarists sitting in a row, and each of them had their amp on a folding chair directly opposite them, tilted back a little so that the amp was pointing directly at their heads.
I made a stand out of a broken mic stand for my DV Little Jazz so I can have it at ear level (if I am sitting) and pointed at me. I can usually get a sound I like that way. How that translates to the audience I can't say, but at least I can hear!
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I have no sound in my mind. I play what the kit offers me, or I turn the dials and hear what happens. Sometimes, when I have finished playing, I turn off the amp and change a few settings for the next session – with little idea of what might result.
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This may have little relevance for modern guitarists, but in every picture I've ever seen of Charlie Christian playing, the amp is elevated, way up high, either on a chair, a stool, or on top of an upright piano, somewhere high, never on the floor. I make no claims about why, because I was far in the future. But I do believe that the amp can be heard better by the audience, and by the guitarist, if it's higher rather than lower. The higher the sound source, the better it can be heard. That may or may not be what the player wants, though.
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I think you're on to something there...... sort of mixing the amp sound with the room sound. Originally Posted by Alter
Don't like the room sound? Add in more amp until you get some combination you like, or at least the room doesn't bother you as much - you can take your attention off of it and just play.
Which as noted, is gonna be different from what the audience hears anyway.
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With my tube amp, a 13watt Vintage47, I have begun putting it in front of me and listening to the back. This is something the old cats used to do way back in cc time, judging from photos, and I also saw a photo of Rene Thomas doing similar with his eh150. I want to hear myself and this works well for me despite the room sound and being in front helps project the sound. I don't think most pianists or horn players twiddle knobs right? They work on their sound the rest is out of control except by the sound guy should there be one in which case it's out of your hands anyway. At least that's how I see it. I treat my guitar and amp as a singular instrument, it's a horn. I try to have my sound with me, different spaces will react differently but that's not my problem. Maybe impractical but that's just me.
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Those amps had all controls on the bottom in the back. Apparently, the idea was to have the amp in front of the player. From the old photos, it looks like Charlie did it both ways, front and back, at different times. I don't see any photos with the amp on the floor. In the Benny Goodman photos, he usually has the amp behind. Originally Posted by Degranulator
I wonder if, at the time, he was just overjoyed to have amplification at all, since it was pretty new. Maybe it was later that guitarists started picking things apart.
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Yes my amp has the controls in back like that and being behind it makes it a whole lot easier to access. There's also very little to tweak, a single tone knob and volume, although each of the three inputs gives a different response. The "microphone" input is very hot and the loudest. I usually put it on a chair next to me but forward to get it closer to my ear. If I can't be heard over the band, they're playing too loud! But it's a trio so not really a problem. I use a DV Mark jazz 12 conventionally if I need more volume or am expected to sound more contemporary with another group. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Charlie was no doubt overjoyed with amplification.
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In my early days playing rock thru a Vox AC30, it was a great invention to raise it on the amps own light case. I heard it better thru my ears than thru my legs.
Nowadays I have no light cases so I bought a Quik Lok amp stand which a) raises the amp from the floor a bit and b) tilts the amp to my ears as much as I want.
The amp stand is the best 30€s that I have ever paid for guitar gear. I can always hear myself, the boomy hollow stages are not boomy anymore and my band mates are not disturbed with my volume.
With it I have to mic my amp to the PA every time, but that’s the way to better and wider dispersion of the sound anyway.
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Every room is different, getting a consistent sound has much to do with being able to analyze what one can hear and act accordingly. Trying out different things helps. In some rooms an amp sounds too bassy on the floor, in others too thin on a stand. In some rooms it sounds to bassy with the mid and bass control almost out, in others the treble is so penetrant even with treble knob almost down and mid/bass up. A good eq is worth gold. If a room has natural reverb, the amp's reverb needs to be pulled back so as not to get too muddy etc., while if a room is very dry the opposite might be necessary. Sometimes i tilt even my RE cabinet up, especially if it's necessary to be close to it. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Your questions:
1. be flexible to use what suits the room (floor or stand/chair/table)
2. no experience here with rear ports, but i would try to figure out what the difference in open space changes soundwise and use the knowledge (i could imagine that less distance from a wall would lessen the bass response)
3. all surfaces in a room matter. Floor, walls, ceiling .... also if there are pillars, or if a room is divided, or if parts have a lower ceiling etc. . A carpet would help in certain rooms, in others it would turn the sound to worse and the effect depends on the size, so i wouldn't bother.
4. I place my amp so that i hear it well, preferably with direct sound, or partly direct sound from the speaker to my ear(s).
There are usually a few different ways to go with similar problems. Equalizing can also be achieved by using a different pick .... but i repeat: the first and main thing is the ablility to figure out what you hear from the room. Is it bassy, trebly, does it lack clarity, is it muddy? Next you think about how you could even it out. A general observation: the more difficult a room is, the more problems you will get by raising volumes. And last: i like my little Mambo 8" Wedge, as it can easily be tilted which is best for me most of the times.
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