Looking for a warm, fat sound

[Cunamara]

It occurred to me last night, in a bit of random thought, that there are many posts indicating the person is looking for a "warm, fat tone" from their equipment. Does anybody ever post that they're looking for a thin, cold tone?

[Vihar]

I prefer warm, thin tones.

[Doug B]

It occurred to me last night, in a bit of random thought, that there are many posts indicating the person is looking for a "warm, fat tone" from their equipment. Does anybody ever post that they're looking for a thin, cold tone?

Sure-Ice picky sound!

[AllanAllen]

Telecaster bridge pickup through a fender twin. I think they’d use sharp, pristine, clarity and cutting as descriptors though.

[Gitterbug]

For surf, not for jazz.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Telecaster bridge pickup through a fender twin. I think they’d use sharp, pristine, clarity and cutting as descriptors though.

And that would be Albert Collins, "the master of the Telecaster". He did play an Esquire from time to time, and I think he had a V - but he's almost never even pictured with anything but a Tele. Despite having a neck HB in his signature Tele, he rarely used anything but the SC bridge pickup. He was a Fender guy through and through, and his favorite amp was a Quad. He ran the volume and treble at 10 regardless of which amp he used, and he kept the mid and bass at 0. His other nickname was Icepick, the reason for which will be obvious from the first notes of any of the videos below.

If you don't know him, you should - he was truly an icon of electric blues. Here's some of his signature playing:

[rpjazzguitar]

And that would be Albert Collins, "the master of the Telecaster". He did play an Esquire from time to time, and I think he had a V - but he's almost never even pictured with anything but a Tele. Despite having a neck HB in his signature Tele, he rarely used anything but the SC bridge pickup. He was a Fender guy through and through, and his favorite amp was a Quad. He ran the volume and treble at 10 regardless of which amp he used, and he kept the mid and bass at 0. His other nickname was Icepick, the reason for which will be obvious from the first notes of any of the videos below.

If you don't know him, you should - he was truly an icon of electric blues. Here's some of his signature playing:

I'm a huge fan of Collins. Great player, singer and showman. Also, composer. Check out, Dirty Dishes, or I Ain't Drunk.

He tuned to a minor chord and capoed high on the neck -- every tune. I don't know if he always capoed at the same fret.

When I heard him live, he played a four speaker Fender (Quad?) and a Tele. He'd go out into the audience with what looked like 100 feet or more of cable. His sound didn't change, which might imply a buffer amp in the signal chain, but that's speculative.

It's another case of an absolute master using a technique that nobody else uses, like Wes' thumb, or Django's two fingers, or Charlie Christian's downstrokes.

[bluejaybill]

It occurred to me last night, in a bit of random thought, that there are many posts indicating the person is looking for a "warm, fat tone" from their equipment. Does anybody ever post that they're looking for a thin, cold tone?

So funny, the exact same statement was made to me by a recording engineer once in relation to the warm sound of Neve preamps.

"After all, is anyone looking for a thin sound?" He may have been referencing the clinical sound of digital recording at the time.

[John A.]

It occurred to me last night, in a bit of random thought, that there are many posts indicating the person is looking for a "warm, fat tone" from their equipment. Does anybody ever post that they're looking for a thin, cold tone?

Probably not, but people often cite examples of what they mean by warm and fat that sound thin and cold to me. So in some sense I think people actually do want cold and thin tones. But those words have negative connotation, and they don’t want to ask for something bad.

[rpjazzguitar]

I like warm and fat for lead. I like thinner for comping. For funk, thinner still.

[customxke]

One man’s warm, fat tone is another man’s muddy, woofy tone. One man’s bright, cutting tone is another man’s thin, cold tone.

[Litterick]

Dylan:

'The closest I ever got to the sound I hear in my mind was on individual bands in the Blonde on Blonde album. It's that thin, that wild mercury sound. It's metallic and bright gold, with whatever that conjures up. That's my particular sound. I haven't been able to succeed in getting it all the time.'

[Cunamara]

Probably not, but people often cite examples of what they mean by warm and fat that sound thin and cold to me. So in some sense I think people actually do want cold and thin tones. But those words have negative connotation, and they don’t want to ask for something bad.

I had a similar thought. I have heard examples exactly like that, and have been puzzled by how anyone could hear that tone as being warm and fat. I also thought about that classic glassy Stratocaster sound, which to me often feels thin and cold, but other people don't seem to hear it that way.

As gitterbug implied, there are tonal conventions for jazz versus other genres of music, where warm and fat might actually be problematic.

In the thin and cold tone department, in addition to Albert Collins I would also suggest latter-day Bob Weir, whose tone has been getting brighter and more piercing and clanging over the decades. I love how he plays, but I don't particularly love his sound; I saw him with Wolf Brothers a few years back, and had to put in earplugs because his tone was so piercing and harsh. I much preferred his sound back when he was playing his 1959 ES 335, but that was the 70s. Jerry Garcia's sound was also bright and thin although still had some warmth. Both he and Weir were trying to cut through an extraordinarily thick mix with bass, two drummers and keyboards to contend with. Bob Dylan's comments sounds like he was trying to almost get a pedal steel tone out of his guitar.

And then there was Joe Pass with his signature Ibanez.

[pauln]

I think warm and fat best describes the cello.
Is that the kind of tone we are talking about?

[st.bede]

My ear hears the older jazz sound as thiner (a SC rhythm chief), compared to the typical thicker HB type of thing. (I have heard plenty of thin sounding HBs, but typical not on jazz guitars). Also there is the whole piano-ist type of thing. The piano-ist guitar sound seem more towards the stienway (or even a yamaha) type of thing then the bosendoorf … There are the guitar parts that need a lot of sparkle. Of course it is all context important.

[Cunamara]

I think warm and fat best describes the cello.
Is that the kind of tone we are talking about?

Well, now, that's an interesting question! I don't think I've ever heard anyone compare the stereotypical warm and fat jazz guitar tone with the cello. But it is certainly a warm and fat sounding instrument, isn't it? It is an interesting conundrum in jazz guitar, in that the instrument itself was designed to be bright and cutting- competing with the banjo in jazz orchestras- but we keep trying to get a soft, warm and fat sound out of it a la Jim Hall, which is not what the instrument's natural voice is.

I often think that the sound we are trying to get is more like the nylon string classical guitar sound, but using archtops because they are the legacy instrument of the style. I have found that it's much easier to get that warm tone out of a semihollow and even my Stratishcaster (which does not have normal Strat pickups in it) than it is with my 17" carved archtop, which really kind of wants to bark rather than purr. Maybe that's part of why Gibson thickened the tops on their archtop guitars over the decades, as well as for warranty reasons- to give a sound more like what customers seemed to want in more modern styles of jazz.

[Spook410]

Gibson L5 into a Fender Twin Reverb is what comes to mind for 'fat and warm'.

There's also 'rich and complex', 'bell like clarity', 'acoustic overtones', and, always, 'woody'. All of which are suitably vague and, to me, imply somewhat different rigs.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

He'd go out into the audience with what looked like 100 feet or more of cable.

It was 100 feet of cable. And through a wide open Quad, the added capacitance merely dulled the point of the ice pick. There’s an old story that he once got arrested in NY because he wandered out of the club in which he was playing and into the street, while he was playing. The crowd followed him out, the club doors were open, the band was pumping, and traffic was apparently stopped by it all.

[Bobby Timmons]

Does anybody ever post that they're looking for a thin, cold tone?

Maybe black metulz guitarists.

[gitman]

Two major players I respect totally had a rather sharp sound -but not thin an cold : Cornell Dupree and Eric Gale. Dupree used a Tele and Gale toted an 80‘s Super-400 - y‘all check out the legendary „Stuff“ albums with Steve Gadd and Richard Tee !

[rpjazzguitar]

Fat and warm brings to mind Wes.

"Thin" brings to mind the comping by the JB's (James Brown's band) - which was perfect.

[Cunamara]

Cornell is one of my favorite guitarists from tone to taste. He kept the blues in R&B. Eric's tone could be really... pointy.

[RyanM]

"Thin" brings to mind the comping by the JB's (James Brown's band) - which was perfect.

That's a 175 in middle position, a great sound a lot of jazz guys are missing out on.

[John A.]

Gibson L5 into a Fender Twin Reverb is what comes to mind for 'fat and warm'.

There's also 'rich and complex', 'bell like clarity', 'acoustic overtones', and, always, 'woody'. All of which are suitably vague and, to me, imply somewhat different rigs.

To me warm and fat implies accentuated mids and an amp on the edge of compression/sustain. To my sense of the terms, an L5 and Twin Reverb is usually a bit more on scooped and bright end. To me the epitome of warm and fat is a 175 through a tweed amp or Princeton Reverb, or maybe an Ampeg.

[kris]

Fat is fat, thin is thin.
It depends on the instrument and who is playing it.
Maybe the setting of the amplifiers also matters, and of course the guitar strings.