Choosing an Archtop for Pasquale-esque tone?

[Bouviour]

Hi all,
Just seeking some advice and suggestions for getting a tone similar to Pasquale Grasso's Treniers. I have a budget of about $2000-3000 aud.
I currently have a strat with humbuckers which does not quite do the job. I'm very overwhelmed in comparing models of archtop guitars so any advice is appreciated. At this point I was looking at a Eastman 503CE, but not sure if the body is deep enough to compare to his sound? Although I guess it would be feedback resistant which is a bonus.



I was also considering using Thomastik Jazz Swing 13s. Would that be close to what he'd be putting on?

Cheers.

[David B]

Grasso typically uses round wounds. A couple of years he was using a mix of sets with a 14 high E, but has now moved to 12s I believe.

His recorded tones use a range of guitar types - two of his Treniers (the Modelo Grasso and the black guitar) have carved tops, the Trenier Jazz Special has a laminated top. Before the Treniers, he was using a Gibson ES175 with a single neck humbucker. He's also taken to playing a vintage Gibson ES-125 on occasion. That's a pretty wide range of instruments, but he always sounds like him.
I would just try as wide a range of guitars as you can and go with whatever you like the most, rather than chasing any particular specs.
Grasso does have a preference for single-coil pickups, so if you go for a humbucker-equipped guitar, you could always experiment with a drop-in Charlie Christian type pickup, made by Lollar and others.

I turned him onto vintage Gibson amps when he visited in 2019 and he's since built up a collection of them, as well as using a Vintage 47 VA-185G (a take on a Gibson EH-185). If you wanted a pedal to give a bit of that type of amp flavour into whatever amp you have, take a look at the Jr Barnyard preamp pedal by Nocturne Brain: JR BARNYARD(R) EH-150 /185 octal tube style Preamp – The Nocturne Brain

[Stu_Silverman]

Chiming in for a short, fairly relevant anecdote.

Spent a couple weeks in nyc in November catching Grasso, Peter B and various others as much as I could. Got Pasquale to play a tune at ornithology (highly recommend to any nyc travelers btw) on my 37 epi triumph (into a deluxe from my memory) and was not surprised to find that his voice on the instrument was still 100% identifiable regardless of using one of the treniers or gibson amps. He seemed to really like the guitar, telling me as much multiple times. Have also seen him play his es-125 (maybe it was a 150?) with the same results. Neither of those 2 guitars would run over 3k.

I think as long as your looking in the vintage jazz box category you should be able to find something that gives you what you want, whether it be an old epiphone or gibson.

I think he would say focus on the musical content more than the gear itself anyways.

[omphalopsychos]

I know that Pasquale is not a very gear oriented player although he's been experimenting with new pickups on one of his guitars and he's been playing some vintage Gibson amps lately. However, just a few years ago he was playing with a tiny amp that I didn't recognize. Sounded the same.

He seems to roll the tone back on his pickups (either that or his sound engineers mic the amp speaker off-center), but I wouldn't say that Pasquale has a really identifiable tone. This isn't meant as a criticism, it's just that I don't identify any specific sound to him. Just really incredible and ornate lines, counterpoint, and harmony.

Honestly if you are trying to sound like Pasquale, you have such a mountain to climb that the last thing you should be wasting time and energy on is gear.

Maybe you can do a bit better than a Strat, but just about any archtop with a neck humbucker will get you in the ballpark.

[omphalopsychos]

Additional note. I once asked him about his Trenier after a gig. "Is the top Spruce or Maple?" "Laminate or Solid"?

His response: "I don't know! It sounds pretty good!"

[Christian Miller]

Hi all,
Just seeking some advice and suggestions for getting a tone similar to Pasquale Grasso's Treniers. I have a budget of about $2000-3000 aud.
I currently have a strat with humbuckers which does not quite do the job. I'm very overwhelmed in comparing models of archtop guitars so any advice is appreciated. At this point I was looking at a Eastman 503CE, but not sure if the body is deep enough to compare to his sound? Although I guess it would be feedback resistant which is a bonus.

Pasquale has a sort of mid rangey tone. A lot of it comes from the way he plays I think, it’s remarkably consistent from set up to set up. He was playing his Trenier through a Gibson EH150 (David B’s iirc) last time I saw him. But he’s used all sorts. The amp does not really colour the sound so much as reproduce the guitar tone imo.

i reckon an Eastman and a good solid state amp like a Polytone would actually do well enough. I mean the rest is up to you quite honestly. Good luck!

The 503s have a good acoustic tone iirc, body depth is not a concern I would have.

I was also considering using Thomastik Jazz Swing 13s. Would that be close to what he'd be putting on?

Cheers.

having played PG’s guitar (clang) that’s what they felt like, though I think his were round wound. If he’s about Don_oz could advise further being a student of PG’s.

[Christian Miller]

Grasso typically uses round wounds. A couple of years he was using a mix of sets with a 14 high E, but has now moved to 12s I believe.

His recorded tones use a range of guitar types - two of his Treniers (the Modelo Grasso and the black guitar) have carved tops, the Trenier Jazz Special has a laminated top. Before the Treniers, he was using a Gibson ES175 with a single neck humbucker. He's also taken to playing a vintage Gibson ES-125 on occasion. That's a pretty wide range of instruments, but he always sounds like him.
I would just try as wide a range of guitars as you can and go with whatever you like the most, rather than chasing any particular specs.
Grasso does have a preference for single-coil pickups, so if you go for a humbucker-equipped guitar, you could always experiment with a drop-in Charlie Christian type pickup, made by Lollar and others.

I turned him onto vintage Gibson amps when he visited in 2019 and he's since built up a collection of them, as well as using a Vintage 47 VA-185G (a take on a Gibson EH-185). If you wanted a pedal to give a bit of that type of amp flavour into whatever amp you have, take a look at the Jr Barnyard preamp pedal by Nocturne Brain: JR BARNYARD(R) EH-150 /185 octal tube style Preamp – The Nocturne Brain

NB: I like the barnyard a lot. It was David that turned me onto it.

The main thing it seems to do if you don’t want to drive the sound is a considerable midrange hump compared to a stereotypical fender blackface tone. Listen to most jazz guitarists before about 1963 and that’s the sort of tone they were getting. You could try a tweed fender as well. Or an EQ if using a modern fender.

tbh the main thing is to make sure you pick firmly but gently directly above the neck pickup.

[NSJ]

He needs a better engineer for his records. I’ve never heard such a great musician sound like the sound is submerged underwater than the recorded sound of his guitar on his records. It’s definitely lo-fi sounding. It’s not a knock on him live, his playing, or anything like that. He is pretty much the best player in the business.

Which is why it’s shocking his recorded sound on records sounds like Joe Pass’ Virtuoso sound. I think this is a recording engineer problem.

This reminds me, yet again, that my old teacher was a very good friend of Joe Pass even a pallbearer at his funeral. The one thing he didn’t like that annoyed him was Joe had the penchant for picking up shit guitars and trying to play them. He would say, “put that down, that has the tonal value of a god damn ukulele!”

The maxim “(great player) always sounds like themselves no matter what” is generally true. it’s also, alas true, sometimes, shit guitars sound like shit guitars, no matter what.

[Christian Miller]

I’ve heard someone say this is the drawback of the Chuck Wayne approach to picking that you need to roll off the treble to make it work. Don’t know if that’s true, but it’s something you get with Ben Monder as well.

I quite like Sheryl Bailey’s dictum of keeping the treble open.

no idea myself. It does sound like Pg has that kind of sound. But you know, it’s what he’s hearing.

You need trebles in my opinion for a three dimensional sound, micing the box is a good policy for traditional solo jazz guitar tones. There’s some vids up with PG playing boxes so you can hear the acoustic guitar tone. I like it.

So no idea. I don’t really go for this type of tone myself, but then the tones on my last album are too bright. It’s hard to get it right. What do I know anyway? Can’t play like Pasquale

[bluejaybill]

NB: I like the barnyard a lot. It was David that turned me onto it.

The main thing it seems to do if you don’t want to drive the sound is a considerable midrange hump compared to a stereotypical fender blackface tone. Listen to most jazz guitarists before about 1963 and that’s the sort of tone they were getting. You could try a tweed fender as well. Or an EQ if using a modern fender.

tbh the main thing is to make sure you pick firmly but gently directly above the neck pickup.

All good advice, I use either a King of Tone or an EQ pedal, the latter works great with a BF style amp to fill in the low mids. The KOT works with some guitars and not others to warm things up. I also use an Empress Compressor sometimes. Not referencing Pascale here so much, to me his sound is mostly about his touch, but an old Gibson style amp would help too.

[sgosnell]

My only knock on Grasso's sound is that he never seems to turn the volume up enough. It's always hard to hear him, compared with anyone else. I don't even bother to watch the livestreams he does from Mezzrow, because I can't hear him, especially over the drums and bass. On the Vignola guitar nights he's done, he's much lower in volume than anyone else. He's a great player, has great tone, he just won't turn the damned volume up enough to be heard clearly.

[gitman]

My only knock on Grasso's sound is that he never seems to turn the volume up enough. It's always hard to hear him, compared with anyone else. I don't even bother to watch the livestreams he does from Mezzrow, because I can't hear him, especially over the drums and bass. On the Vignola guitar nights he's done, he's much lower in volume than anyone else. He's a great player, has great tone, he just won't turn the damned volume up enough to be heard clearly.

The trouble with these low-power vintage amps is the way they fart out and distort when you turn them up just a hair above conversation level... he knows this so as long as he can properly hear himself it's all cool with him. Personally I'd never go out on stage with such gear because it could break down at any time. Vintage amps in the studio can be the ticket to heaven on earth though ....

[SOLR]

He needs a better engineer for his records. I’ve never heard such a great musician sound like the sound is submerged underwater than the recorded sound of his guitar on his records. It’s definitely lo-fi sounding. It’s not a knock on him live, his playing, or anything like that. He is pretty much the best player in the business.

Which is why it’s shocking his recorded sound on records sounds like Joe Pass’ Virtuoso sound. I think this is a recording engineer problem.

This reminds me, yet again, that my old teacher was a very good friend of Joe Pass even a pallbearer at his funeral. The one thing he didn’t like that annoyed him was Joe had the penchant for picking up shit guitars and trying to play them. He would say, “put that down, that has the tonal value of a god damn ukulele!”

The maxim “(great player) always sounds like themselves no matter what” is generally true. it’s also, alas true, sometimes, shit guitars sound like shit guitars, no matter what.

An absurd statement ! The same Engineer can mix a really great drum and bass sound but not Grasso's ??? and Treniers are definitely not "shit " guitars.....

BTW I am a sound engineer, I've heard it all, when it's good it's the artist the equipment the venue but when it's bad it's me?

This sounds fine, that's his sound

. Do I like it ? not particularly.. but that's what he likes.....it's a specific sound ...and he keeps experimenting with p-ups.....

S

[sgosnell]

The latest guitar night stream had Grasso playing through a Deluxe Reverb. Not exactly a low-power amp, nor vintage. It just needed to be turned up a notch. At least for me. I'm sure he could hear himself, because he was directly in front of the amp. For me, even with the TV volume up, it was hard to hear him over the bass and drums, and those guys were not playing that loud. Vignola was much louder, through a Henriksen, as was Vinnie Raniolo. Probably partly due to the Fender, but mostly to the volume knob.

[DawgBone]

An absurd statement ! The same Engineer can mix a really great drum and bass sound but not Grasso's ??? and Treniers are definitely not "shit " guitars.....

BTW I am a sound engineer, I've heard it all, when it's good it's the artist the equipment the venue but when it's bad it's me?

This sounds fine, that's his sound

. Do I like it ? not particularly.. but that's what he likes.....it's a specific sound ...and he keeps experimenting with p-ups.....

S

Like listening to someone play killer jazz guitar from the apartment next door.

[Stu_Silverman]

He has sarcastically told me in the past when I asked about the volume thing "why should I turn up? They should just turn down."

[NSJ]

Like listening to someone play killer jazz guitar from the apartment next door.

That track sounds better than the older solo albums from a few years ago I remember listening to. Which sounded like a bootleg. It was like “I’m inspired by Charlie Christian, but also took the lo-fi recording techniques of the era to heart.

This does sound better, I have to admit. Although too dark.

[NSJ]

In my opinion, the gold standard for recording an arch top guitar on record goes to Jimmy Raney in the 1980s on his Steeple Chase records. Especially the master.. in the last few years of his life, he put out his best playing. That sounds incredible. It’s a shame Jimmy Raineys 1980s records on Steeplechase don’t get the credit they deserve.. I forgot what guitar he was playing on, but whoever recorded those sessions did a great job. In my mind that’s what an electric archtop should sound like..

[guitarcarver]

In my opinion, the gold standard for recording an arch top guitar on record goes to Jimmy Raney in the 1980s on his Steeple Chase records. Especially the master.. in the last few years of his life, he put out his best playing. That sounds incredible. It’s a shame Jimmy Raineys 1980s records on Steeplechase don’t get the credit they deserve.. I forgot what guitar he was playing on, but whoever recorded those sessions did a great job. In my mind that’s what an electric archtop should sound like..

I could not agree more. The master is an amazingly great album. His tone was superb.

[Christian Miller]

My only knock on Grasso's sound is that he never seems to turn the volume up enough. It's always hard to hear him, compared with anyone else. I don't even bother to watch the livestreams he does from Mezzrow, because I can't hear him, especially over the drums and bass. On the Vignola guitar nights he's done, he's much lower in volume than anyone else. He's a great player, has great tone, he just won't turn the damned volume up enough to be heard clearly.

I think he does that quite consciously - the concept as far as I can tell is to have the guitar at the same volume level as an upright piano. He's audible but not dominant in the way that most jazz guitarists would be in a band situation.

He has sarcastically told me in the past when I asked about the volume thing "why should I turn up? They should just turn down."

Well is he wrong?

I can sympathise. Part of the problem maybe that when you turn up the instrument responds differently and it's much harder to play in that detailed, pianistic way he does, maybe; it pushes you into playing more like a monophonic instrument. At least from my own experience.

[Christian Miller]

In my opinion, the gold standard for recording an arch top guitar on record goes to Jimmy Raney in the 1980s on his Steeple Chase records. Especially the master.. in the last few years of his life, he put out his best playing. That sounds incredible. It’s a shame Jimmy Raineys 1980s records on Steeplechase don’t get the credit they deserve.. I forgot what guitar he was playing on, but whoever recorded those sessions did a great job. In my mind that’s what an electric archtop should sound like..

You know I was listening to this today

And it reminded me how much I've always loved Martin Taylor's tone. He's not the hippest player among jazz guitar heads, but his tone is constantly gorgeous, with plenty of treble without harshness. More of an acoustic concept, maybe.

Also, strong 80s look going on here. Nice one, Martin.

[Christian Miller]

An absurd statement ! The same Engineer can mix a really great drum and bass sound but not Grasso's ??? and Treniers are definitely not "shit " guitars.....

BTW I am a sound engineer, I've heard it all, when it's good it's the artist the equipment the venue but when it's bad it's me?

This sounds fine, that's his sound

. Do I like it ? not particularly.. but that's what he likes.....it's a specific sound ...and he keeps experimenting with p-ups.....

S

I think the engineer has captured PG's live tone well here. That's the way he sounds, and I believe the way he wants to sound.

[sgosnell]

I think his volume may often, even usually, lower than the volume of a piano. Hard to say, though, because I know nothing of the actual sound in the venue, nor of exactly how it's recorded. All I really can say is that it's hard to listen to him much of the time, because I just can't hear what he's playing. I understand his preference in this, and can sympathize. I just can't listen very long.

[SOLR]

As a complement to what David.B posted (he's the Grasso officionado )If the OP has not seen this JGT interview then it's worth a listen, he talks about his sound around the 35th min. ..

I've heard he played La Bella roundwound strings.....Also note (in the JGT interview!) his guitars accoustically sound just like regular archtops, .......
S

[sgosnell]

They sound like amplified guitars to me, even the ones with carved tops, nevermind the laminates. No way around that with a magnetic pickup. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant, though.