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What are pro tools?
I'd much rather play live with other people for other people. Recording and overdubbing is interesting in its own way but a poor substitute, really.
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01-07-2023 08:01 PM
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I found that listening to the sound of the effect - is it too obvious? is it too subtle? - meant I was distracted. I use some effects for other genres, but not for jazz.
Originally Posted by Laurence Finston
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That would be the way to use it. I've been playing it a lot, but I've always felt that drumming circles and things like that more fun for the people who are participating than for the listeners. Like they say, the only thing worse than a bass solo is a drum solo. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
I love Latin percussion, but it's usually an accompaniment and when they solo, it usually doesn't go on too long. Or at least it didn't. I like the Latin American popular music of an earlier time better than most of what I hear now.
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For some perspective on latency, the speed of sound is around 1100 feet per second (give or take, depending on air temp and pressure). If you stand 5 feet away from your amp, there’s about 4.5 milliseconds of “latency" between when you pick a note and when the sound reaches you from the amp. Adding 5 Ms of latency due to digital processing is like standing 5 feet further away from the amp.
Off the top of my head, I’d say the farthest I’ve ever stood from my amp on a stage is maybe 15 away (15 ms). Not a problem, IME. Throwing another 10 ms of digital processing latency on top of that probably is, though.
I think latency in settings like home recording where you’re playing through monitors right next to you or headphones engage your perceptual systems differently from a stage, though. So I think context affects the amount of latency you can handle without getting messed up.
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I think some players have very high standards for being in time. Originally Posted by Laurence Finston
I certainly find the latency on the EHX pedals a little annoying for improv. They work well if I use them for pads and composed things. It’s probably more a feel thing than anything else; like with amps sometimes.
Interestingly some instruments like double bass have some latency built in. Double bassists have to start the note slightly ahead of the beat so that it ‘blooms’ in the right place.
EDIT that reminds me also of drums where they spend a lot of time practicing so the bass drum for example sounds in the right place rather than hitting the pedal mechanism at the right time and expecting it to be in time. Again the main thing seems to be listen to your playing critically. Not being a drummer I can imagine the tolerances vary from kit to kit, and you can see all these amazing performances from people in NYC on these broken down looking house kits.
Probably a guitarist can train themselves to do this but I think it runs counter to how we are used to doing things. Also - what about crap acoustics? Sometimes you have to play by feel.Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-08-2023 at 11:27 AM.
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There's one thing that may be obvious to everyone posting on this thread, but since not everyone is a pedal expert, I think it may be worth mentioning it: The operation of any pedal that has to recognize the signal in order to process it, like the EHX organ simulator pedals or the Ravish sitar simulator, will be affected by variations in signal strength. So, if your playing is uneven, or your pickups are delivering an uneven signal for some other reason, this will tend to degrade performance. This is the reason why I usually have a compressor at the beginning of my effect chain. For anyone unfamiliar with effects, a compressor evens out the signal strength. In addition, at least one EHX pedal has a control for adjusting the sensitivity of the device. The organ simulators don't, I don't think the Ravish does, but I'd have to get it out to be sure.
With the Ravish, there's a noticeable difference between the response for one particular string and the others. For this reason, I usually use it together with an equalizer. It doesn't fail to recognize the signal, but the volume is lower. An alternative would be to use a different guitar. The problem might well lie with the guitar: it's a very low-end six-string solid-body. However, it plays in tune, sounds fine and is enjoyable to play. I'm not going to replace it just to improve the response of a pedal or two.
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I think that latency has improved dramatically in the last 10-20 years with digital effects processing. I can't detect any obvious latency.
But, I don't get the feel of a good old tube amp, which many had "sag" from the rectifier tube etc.
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I see there are a lot of comments on the "latency issue".
But what bothers me the most is the way the instrument responds (or not) when a few effects are involved.
For me the "instrument part" of the guitar decreases a lot, and it feels to me that the instrument becomes a sort of remote control,
when it should feel like the extension of the body.
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I was inspired by this thread and started searching. Yesterday I received a Quattro I found on FeeBay for $250. At that price, I was expecting a really beat up unit. To my surprise it looks almost new and works perfectly! Originally Posted by bluejaybill
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Technology is fun. Experimentation is fun. Some enjoy rabbit holes and distractions. Maybe others feel more focused and driven so if something isn't core, there's no room for it. Music is my hobby so there is plenty of time to try out 24 different reverbs, 9 flanges, and a unison octave. All with a shimmer delay. I don't find getting everything to work together all that hard but I'm not trying to do it on a stage.
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I know I am bringing old post up but I am intrigued by the suspected noticeable latency of the GX 100. I ordered it few days ago after watching 2 latency test on YT from same guy:
Are we talking about noticing <1ms ?
Being very intolerable to latency experienced with vsts in DAW and since I recognize described disconnected feel from when I was playing fender mustang GT100, I wonder if I will abandon GX 100 as quickly as I abandoned Mustang?
Are there any new experiences here with GX 100 or GT 1000, since they appear to have similar latency?
If there are none, stay tuned. As an appreciator of very unforgiving and raw tube amps and the feel they provide, I won't hesitate to send this one down the way if it doesn't do it for me.
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Sometimes it's not the latency that people notice, but the way digital compresses. And some people just hear and dislike the digital artifacts that exist in any digital unit.
I've always been a guitar direct to a non master tube amp player, and in most of the music i like, jazz, funk, soul, R&B, etc, guitar is direct to a tube amp most of the time. But of course I 've used multi effects and analog pedalboards over the years. Once i had my fancy pedalboard in a studio, about 10 pedals most of them boutique or classic , very carefully constructed with voodoo labs current supply, good cables, proper buffers etc, going into a good tube amp (either my old princeton or an Allessandro i had). Then i just plugged direct and the guitar felt and sounded ten times better. This was a lesson...
The GT100 is a fine unit, not the best but certainly good enough to gig with. I have a friend who plays stadiums with it, he ever played Royal Albert Hall with it!
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I still gig with my Boss ME8 from 1996. I'm on my 3rd as the jack sockets are fixed to the circuit board and are quite vulnerable. The first 2 units would unexpectedly switch to tuner mode and mute the sound. The third is more protected. Analogue drives. I have never used it for jazz.
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But, most newer Multi-FX designs have faster processors? Originally Posted by garybaldy
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I'm fine with recording digital, you can get very good results with it. But something about playing live with modelers sounds artiificial to me. One of my buddies said it's the high end, annoying sizzle that gives it away. I'm not sure what exactly but i tried a few boxes and it's just not for me. So far I couldn't find anything that can replace my FlyRig5, all analog (except digital reverb and delay) with xlr out, it's not glorious sounding, but it's good enough for all situations.
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Is that something I should be worried about? Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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Not, if you're happy. Originally Posted by garybaldy
But, in 2023.............................................. ....................
"Boss has unveiled the ME-90, the latest model in its enduringly popular ME series of multi-effects pedals, with the headline feature being the inclusion of the AIRD (Augmented Impulse Response Dynamics) tech found on its flagship GT-1000 model.
While the firm’s COSM tones divided opinions among some players, the AIRD system has generally been applauded for the improved quality"
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I am using Digitech Polara digital reverb most of the time, which helped me slide towards one more digital tryout. I realized I do have AD and DA conversion in polara pedal already. Delay I use is analog deep blue delay handmade clone. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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As for modelers, people use Fender Tonemasters every day and can't really see much of a difference compared to their tube ancestors. So possibly in using modeling it's more about how things are set up. In most cases and IMHO, too much is expected out of generic PA speakers while not having enough EQ (i.e. 4khz low pass and enough bands to fine tune). Something like an Electrovoice EV series, Bose, or Schertler with a 4 band para or 8 band graphic and you can find good results with a solid modeler. I suppose some of the 1X12 cabinets made to be FRFR's are OK but I haven't tried any so can't speak to that.
Currently using a low end multi-FX for my fly weight. A Mooer M2. Under $200. Has a nice app interface, pretty good tuner, basic looper, decent delay, and particulars I can make use of like a bluetooth insert for backing. Modeler is fine. Speaker IR's are fine. EQ is good. And it's one small pedal. Oh.. and it's rechargeable. Runs a couple of hours on internal battery and that can be extended quite a while with a card deck sized phone recharger battery. So if you have something like an Everse 8 or Bose S1 you can run for awhile sans AC.
And when the next gen stuff comes out.. I'll get some of that and continue to enjoy what tech can provide.
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I was, but I'm not sure if I am now. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Not, if you're happy.
I need to tell myself it's all hype.
I've got a GT5 as well which is darned good but it's gathering dust.
I sometimes use a bunch of pedals - oldish DD3, CE5, 70s cry baby etc. - all behind the times!
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I've had the ME50, 70, 80 and 90.
The one I use now is the ME70. I don't notice any latency, although I'm not using a lot of different FX at the same time.
Here are some reasons I like it.
1. The ME70 fits in a rolling briefcase. The ME80 and 90 do not. They're wider.
2. For the sounds I use, the ME70 sounds fine. I don't use the preamp or distortion except rarely.
3. I think the reverb sounds good.
4. The harmonizer on zero sounds good.
5. The volume pedal is essential to me.
6. The tuner works fine.
7. The output is 2k ohms impedance and the output voltage is adjustable, although nominally -10dbu. I can plug right into a powered speaker and get a good sound.
8. Adjustments are easy, even on the fly in the dark. It's all knobs. No menus. No scrolling.
9. The ME90 touts the IR slots, but I couldn't figure out how to identify a good one -- or how to deal with the IR on the fly at a gig if something doesn't sound good. The ME90 has some other options, all great in principle, but all adding complexity and being potentially troublesome on a gig, if something needs to be adjusted.
10. The GT-1 is intriguing. Even more capability and in a tiny package. I returned it. The volume pedal was too small to ride. The switching between patches is up or down the bank (the ME70 has four buttons, each a different patch -- before you deal with bank switching). With the GT-1 it was easy to make a mistake and have the guitar sound like a metal band exploding. I think there's a solution to the switching problem, but not the volume pedal.
11. I don't know how people with individual pedals switch from one sound to another, if several pedals are involved. With the ME series it's one button.
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That happens in guitars too. My 17" carved archtop versus my ES-175 versus my Ibanez GB10 all have different latencies (which I think is what we refer to as "feel" in both guitars and amps). The GB10 is like a snare drum: pick a note and it instantly jumps out of the guitar. There is very little bloom to the note. The ES-175 takes a little longer, probably milliseconds but it's noticeable. It's like a tom. My carved archtop takes even slightly more time, more like a bass drum, for the note to bloom. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Solidbody guitars are a different thing because it's a system with the amplifier and the same guitar through different amplifiers has different latency. This is also true with my archtops when they are amplified, with the interesting effect of there being difference between how the note blooms acoustically in the instrument and how it blooms through the amplifier.
I think I tend to like relatively instant response, such as with the GB10 and a solid state amp. But some of that's a matter of mood for the day: sometimes it's not what I want and I would prefer that longer bloom with the tube amp and/or the ES-175 or the carvetop. I think it makes me play a little differently, not that necessarily any anyone else would notice.
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It arrived. I spent around 10 hours with it. There is no noticeable latency. I settled with very simple setup wah wah, clean boost, fender basman, spring reverb which covers 60 percent of my current R&B gig. As someone mentioned/predicted, there is a crucial difference in tone if I am running it into (A) FX return of SLO 100 clone (well half of it i.e. 50 watts) and Eminence texas heat vs. running it to (B) tascam model 12 and Yamaha ms60 monitors which I have on hand now. Anyway, the A case is good for me and I strongly believe that the B i.e. PA sound is as good as miced amp. I will take it to rehearsal soon to see how it does in the mix. I tried to play it along backing tracks through setup B, and I noticed that reverb disappeared in the mix along with some other frequencies so that's the part that worries me most ATM.
I tried it into the fx return of roland mij cube 40 with lil buddy, and it's surprisingly good. If GX 100 survives for few months I will probably buy a compact solid state head.
One thing I would mention is that although it responds to dynamics of playing when you try to exaggerate it, I do sound more articulate through it then through any of my tube amps. I don't experience it as compression but it feels like there are levels / windows, like it's not capable to catch finest change in dynamics.
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Some people are very sensitive to latency, others barely notice it.
I HATE it. Anything above 3.5ms and I feel it, worse yet, my playing is negatively impacted. It is more than "just" latency. There is also the dynamic penalty you pay going through the ad/da and signal processing. Some boxes are worse than others, but ultimately it's a more disconnected experience.
Quick interesting story about latency. I had a student who came in to do some recording. It was a cheap project so I plugged him into an Eleven Rack (3.5ms latency), going into a radar hard disk recorder (1ms), and monitored through an analog MCI console. Now this kid knows nothing about recording/digital/gear/etc... doesn't even know latency exits. He sits down, plays for 30 seconds, looks up at me and says "it sounds late"...
That's right, a kid of slightly above average talent, with no idea that latency even exists, was easily able to detect a sub 5ms latency. Make of that what you will.
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If a player can hear 3.5ms of delay and it sounds or feels "late", where does he put the amp? It's about 1ms per foot, right?
So, if the amp is 3.5 feet from his ears, it sounds late?
What happens with an amp, FOH, monitors and an echoey room?
My guess, and it's only a guess, is that musicians acclimate to the delay issues on a bandstand and accommodate to them sort of unconsciously.
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