-
Hey gang, I recently inherited a Norlin era Gibson Super 400 CES. It plays wonderfully, strung with TI Flats and the gold hard ware seems to has aged nicely. My only problem is the pickups installed are passive EMGs. I’m looking for decent aftermarket PAFs with aged gold covers to match the rest of the guitar. I’ve been looking at the Seymour Duncan antiquity’s also a set of bare knuckle mules. Would the mules be too hot? I saw that they have Alinico V magnets. Looking through the custom shop 400s, they all have 57 classics, which are Alnico II.
-
12-10-2022 10:01 AM
-
The 57’s are a tough act to follow on a Gibson archtop.
The Kent Armstrong 6 pole humbucker is pretty nice too IMO.
You can always solder your old covers on a new pickup.
Don’t buy just so you can get a antique look.
-
Hey Ahmad,
Welcome to the Forum!
The good and the bad: there are so many great pickups out there!!
The Bare Knuckles are excellent, IMO; I'd encourage you to email them with your questions/concerns, and they will help you out!
Amalfitano makes a great PAF; so does Porter; and Lollar; and Wolfetone; and if you want to spend a lot, Marchione uses Tone Specific on his guitars.
Happy hunting!
Marc
-
I've put SD Benedettos in a couple of jazz guitars and people seem to like them
-
Lindy Fralin pickups should be near the top of any list. His Pure PAF is a joy.
-
Thank you everyone for the warm greetings and advice.
the problem with the EMGS are too hot for my taste and as vain as it sounds, the black covers look…off. based of some of your recommendations, it looks like the Bk stormy mondays sounds like the best bet for my needs.
-
'57 classics would be a good choice, they always deliver. The 490r and 490t are usually cheaper. They are underrated compared to the '57's but to my ears sound very similar.
Seymour Duncan '59's (sh-1) are also a great pickup along with the Seymour Jazz (sh-2). Also, the Seth Lovers are a great pickup.
There are a lot of good makers of quality PAF style pickups right now. Some of the smaller makers seem to thrive on hype while essentially making nothing tonally superior than some of the manufacturers and long time produces of aftermarket pickupsa while charging exorbitant prices.
I wouldn't worry about aged gold, gold hardware develops wear patterns very quickly if you play the instrument frequently.
-
Lindy Fralin:
MODERN PAF: a rounder warmer sound
PURE PAF: a round yet upfront sound.
Ive replaced Ibanez Super 58 MIJ and Gibson 470 and never looked back. Much improved sound, and a better touch too.
-
I would not put The Mule in an archtop, in any circumstance. It's a great rock pickup for a Les Paul, but not for jazz, IMO. I would also stay away from both Kent Armstrong (not a PAF sound at all) and the current Classic 57 production (don't sound as good as old Gibson Pickups). The Stormy Monday from Bare Knuckle is an excellent pickup if you dig Jim Hall's more acoustic sound, but does not have that fat, strong PAF sound.
Fralin, Lolar and Bilfot pickups get great recommendations from the forum, and if you describe your guitar and the sound you want, any of the makers should deliver what you want. For more available brands, I enjoy most Seymour Dancan PAFs and the Di Marzio 36th.
-
If you're talking about the Kent Armstrong hand wound pickups, they also come in gold and silver.
Originally Posted by Ahmad88
Doug
-
i was talking about the EMGs Originally Posted by Doug B
-
the low winding of the stormy mondays is appealing to me for that reason. With a 18” bout, I could only imagine the possibilities! Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
-
I had that pickup for a long time in a 1965 Guild X-500 (laminate and 17'' bout) - if you dig Jim Hall's tone, I can't think of a better pickup (of course, there's too many pickups I have not tried). In the end, I wanted a more PAF electric sound, so traded it into a Seymour Duncan APH pickup. Originally Posted by Ahmad88
Not sure if you're in the UK (or Europe) but I also had once a The Creamery pickup that sound stellar - humbucker in a P90 format in a Godin archtop. I believe he's open to custom pickups, so if you're in the area, it can be a good alternative to Bare Knuckle.
As a word of caution, pickup makers sell the vast majority of their products to blues or rock players - they can have very good intentions but give very poor recomendations, just because they lack the knowledge for the specificities of jazz sound.
-
[Bare Knuckle also has wonderful HB-sized P-90s -- I love them!] Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
-
I had one of the models (the "Mississipi Queen", I believe) on a 335 copy, and loved it at the time. Never tried one on an archtop, but with time I became more of an humbucker guy Originally Posted by marcwhy
-
I’ll have to go with Jorge with this one. I used to be a p90 diehard 10 years back. Originally Posted by marcwhy
speaking of which, for norlin era super 400, what humbuckers they come with out the factory? Where did still using lower out pups? What alnico magnet were they using? What was the Avg. DC for the neck and bridge?
-
I would get a pair of vintage Gibson T-Top buckers as that was what came with that guitar originally. A 74 archtop probably had patent sticker T-Tops rather than stamped T-Tops
-
This is totally what I was thinking when I looked at the Bare Knuckle site. I'm sure that they make great pickups, but it looks like they are primarily oriented towards rock players, and those have different requirements from jazz- maybe bright, maybe too strong, maybe who knows what. Rock oriented builders ten to look for a different kind of clean sound than jazzers do. IMHO. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
I would be looking for a full warm traditional PAF style. I would be hesitant to get a low wind, they are often a bit mid-scooped sounding, maybe clearer, but not the full warm sound that I would want in an L5 or S400- or any jazz guitar for that matter. I just went through that on a floating pickup that I now have to replace. If you have never played an L5 from the late fifties, I can tell you that off the shelf medium output PAF's are the sound of the golden era in arch tops, for me anyway- along with slightly earlier P90's. Think Wes, Joe Pass etc. I would be looking for that medium traditional PAF if I were in your shoes. Even later T-tops, like I had in a '68-70 L5CES, sounded great.
Myself, I would probably consider a Lollar Imperial, a Fralinl pure PAF, or possibly get in touch with Biltoft at Vintage Vibe, he knows jazz pickups very well. I am not familiar with the latest Duncan or DiMarzio pickups. But choose wisely, the cost of installation isn't cheap, and you don't want to do it twice!
-
The form factor of the S-400CES is so overwhelming that any well-made low-to-medium output PAF-style humbuckers will be excellent. I'd look for any Gibson, Seymour Duncan, Dimarzio, Fralin, Lollar, etc. in that mode. No idea where you are, but Vineham, Pickup Wizard, Jon Moore, and Mike Turk are all good winders in Canada. Waste of money to get some silly booteek pickup designed for Les Paul weenies. No one plays an archtop, let alone an 18" carved-top, loud enough for it to make any real difference.
Need a bit more treble? A bit less bass? Some haunting mids? There are knobs on amps for that.
There is more bullshit out there about pickups that about any other guitar component, IMO.
Last edited by Hammertone; 12-12-2022 at 03:54 AM.
-
For the Lollar Imperial, they recommend the low wind, quoting: Originally Posted by bluejaybill
Low Wind Imperial® Humbucker
Ideally suited for guitars that have a darker overall tone, our Low Wind Imperials produce more treble response and a tighter low end than our standard Imperial®. Great for use in semi-hollowbody and hollowbody guitars.
Avg. DC: Neck 7.0K, Bridge 7.9Khp
How would that be different than the Stormy Mondays?
-
That's a good point, maybe a medium output PAF (but still on the low side) can be a better choice than a low output one. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
And I agree with Hammertone, there's too much hyperbolic marketing about pickups - although they do sound different. Just not as much as people claim.
I would also add that pickups, like speakers, as much as you look into specs, it's hard to predict the sound. I've tried pickups with the same magnet and output, that sounded quite different. In the end, you have to choose one, try it and hope it works. If not, you'll take a loss and need to try another one - no other way to do it.
Although I like the Seymour Duncan on my X-500, I still feel I haven't found the right pickup for that guitar, and if funds allowed it I would've already tried quite a few more.
-
Hyperbole is my middle name! The overall tank-like structure of the S-400CES will have an appropriately massive effect on the electric sound, whatever the subtle and even not-so subtle differences between various PAF-style pickups. When I got my last Heritage archtop with Throbak pickups, the pickups were sold within five minutes, for completely stupid money, replaced with a set of Fralins. The guitar sounds the same. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Last edited by Hammertone; 03-03-2023 at 06:02 PM.
-
You are certainly right about that! In addition, I have a pair of original PAF's in my R8 LP (I guess that makes me a weenie!) and I must say, I have tried several top shelf PAF style pickups in it, and somehow the originals always go back in. I mostly play that guitar clean or just slightly dirty, so not so far from my typical jazz tone. And of course they sound great with a rock tone as well. Originally Posted by Hammertone
So with all the hoopla about boutique winders, I thinker's pretty incredible how few of them, that I've tried anyway, resemble the clean sound of the originals. I have my current pair and owned an ES345 from 1960 for years, so I think by now I am familiar with the sound- and yet no one seems to nail the tone of the originals! Clear but warm, well balanced, slightly smoky- hard to describe, but you can hear it on the old guitars and records. And I don't think it's that hard to make one that sounds similar through an OD box- maybe that's why most of the demos are recorded that way!
Luckily, for jazz, most people roll off a bit of the highs. That will tend to obscure the true PAF sound a bit, and maybe (I hope!) make it a bit easier to get that sound in a jazz guitar pickup. Good luck OP, and report back when you find your answer!
-
I agree the 57s are actually very good.
Some years ago I owned a butchered early 60’s Gibson which I sold for pennies but not before I took the PAFs out and swapped them with Classic 57s. At the time I found them a very close match sonically.
I have a selection of Classic 57s, Burstbuckers and now Custombuckers in my newer Gibsons. The guitar with the Custombuckers is really special for many reasons but the pickups help. They nailed a sweet spot with those pickups and Gibson have finally started selling these as parts (at an eye watering price). From my experience I would steer clear of Burstbuckers. I find them a bit bright and rolling off the tone is something I do automatically with them but you could argue they are more versatile. I’m being picky here because I can A/B guitars. None are bad.
Good luck with your search.
-
When did people start referring to all himbuckers as PAFs? They stopped making PAFs 60 yrs ago.
Now get off my lawn!
Reply With Quote
Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
Today, 05:20 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos