Original D'angelico questions to ponder

[deacon Mark]

tI seems John D'angelico made about 1165 guitars from 1932-1964. I have always wondered the following questions and really, I assume no real answers but might be fun to get some ideas.

1.) How many original D'angelico guitars now exist? Certainly a number have not survived the years but how many? Any one care to guess?

2.) Of the original D'angelico guitars how many have been refinished by another luthier? If John refinished the guitar I consider that original and he certainly did do that. What percentage remain with original finish?
3.) Maybe a few still have their D'angelico Guitar they bought from John himself, how many of these folks might there be?

Maybe a few other questions but these intrigue me. I guess I will give my first thoughts on the answer, and I have nothing to go on at all.

I think probably 200 are gone completely either destroyed or so beat up they were tossed out.

My guess is at least 40% have been refinished

I think there certainly are fewer than 10 original owners with their D'angelico guitar they bought from John.

[Stringswinger]

Probably around 1000 genuine D'Angelico guitars still exist with about a third of the extant guitars having been refinished by someone other than the master. I own three and one was refinished, hence my guess.

Any original owners would be at least in their late 70's today. There could be 20-30 left. There are probably fewer.

[citizenk74]

Probably around 1000 genuine D'Angelico guitars still exist with about a third of the extant guitars having been refinished by someone other than the master. I own three and one was refinished, hence my guess.

Any original owners would be at least in their late 70's today. There could be 20-30 left. There are probably fewer.

Incredibly fortunate individuals, one and all!

[Jimmy blue note]

I worked with a guy who had a D'Angelico mandolin that belonged to his father-original owner. I have never felt that kind of response, soul or resonance from anything remotely like that mandolin. The master could build.

[sgcim]

1) My 1935 D'A still exists.
2) Carlo Greco might have touched it up a little, but it looks exactly the same as it did before he repaired some cracks and gave it a fret job. The only thing that looks different is that he replaced the cracked binding. Roger Borys made a new pickguard for it, because the original guard just disintegrated. He based it on a picture I had of my father playing the guitar with the original pickguard.
3) I inherited mine from my father, who hung out at John's place all the time when he was a kid, and whose best friend, Duke, was the jeweler that made the New Yorker design for all the New Yorkers, and many of the inlays on all of his guitars.
My father's long gone, but I'm still here, and my relatives say I look just like him.
I have a friend who bought one of the last D'As; it was a Special that had classical guitar string spacing.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess i have a question, too. Why are people paying such ridiculous prices for mass produced Gibsons, when they seem to be paying less for D'As?

[sgcim]

There was a complaint that the finish on the D'As at the Metropolitan Museum of Art Exhibit were overdone, to make them too 'pretty'.
The curator it has been reported, was a bit more concerned with looks than sound.
How else would you explain the inclusion of one luthier whose guitars are beautiful works of art, but otherwise...

[whiskey02]

Carved instruments are significantly stronger than a flat top classical or 6 string. I would be shocked if 165 of these highly revered and expensive instruments have been destroyed or "trashed' in just 90 years. Cellos, viols and violins that are over 300+ years are still out there and being used daily. Car accidents, fires and drunken stupidity take their toll but I would guess only 20 to 25 are "lost". Maybe a few more that have been molested/modded (I seem to remember Chet did some crazy sh*t to one). These are not delicate like a 17th century lute; very few of those have survived.

SGCIM; could you post a pic before everyone else who reads the above post asks you if you could post pics?

[sgcim]

Carved instruments are significantly stronger than a flat top classical or 6 string. I would be shocked if 165 of these highly revered and expensive instruments have been destroyed or "trashed' in just 90 years. Cellos, viols and violins that are over 300+ years are still out there and being used daily. Car accidents, fires and drunken stupidity take their toll but I would guess only 20 to 25 are "lost". Maybe a few more that have been molested/modded (I seem to remember Chet did some crazy sh*t to one). These are not delicate like a 17th century lute; very few of those have survived.

SGCIM; could you post a pic before everyone else who reads the above post asks you if you could post pics?

I don't know if I can find a picture of it with a cheesy pickguard I bought for it temporarily, but I'll look for it.It's one of his early models, when he was copying the L-5 back then.

[sgcim]

https://vintagepickguardsforsale.shutterfly.com/448

[Litterick]

There was a complaint that the finish on the D'As at the Metropolitan Museum of Art Exhibit were overdone, to make them too 'pretty'.
The curator it has been reported, was a bit more concerned with looks than sound.
How else would you explain the inclusion of one luthier whose guitars are beautiful works of art, but otherwise...

A curator at the Met would not do that.

[Max405]

The thing that blows me away about the early real D’Angelico’s is how stable the necks have remained over the years. With no trussrod.
The ideal guitar for me would be a 50’s Cutaway Excel that’s been COMPLETELY refinished and restored. No cracks. No binding issues. No neck set issues. One with all the mojo (and value) removed. Re-done by an expert. Cosmetically perfect. That means a lot to me.
Well, I am probably the only person who would want it this way, and THATS probably why I’ll never have one like it.
Joe D

[deacon Mark]

The thing that blows me away about the early real D’Angelico’s is how stable the necks have remained over the years. With no trussrod.
The ideal guitar for me would be a 50’s Cutaway Excel that’s been COMPLETELY refinished and restored. No cracks. No binding issues. No neck set issues. One with all the mojo (and value) removed. Re-done by an expert. Cosmetically perfect. That means a lot to me.
Well, I am probably the only person who would want it this way, and THATS probably why I’ll never have one like it.
Joe D

John used a rolled steel bar that was installed in the neck. It was much like a truss rod but simply a straight piece of steel. My 37 New Yorker has perfect action, and plays very much like a more modern guitar. It has barely a bit of relief in the neck and in the 40 years I have owned it never moved. Over the years the action has basically never moved I might have raised or lowered the bridge 4 or 5 times in the 40 years. I keep it just bit under 5/32 and 4/32 at the 12th fret, low and high e.

[QAman]

I’ve owned my 35’ snakehead D’Angelico since 2010 and the neck hasn’t budged. In fact, it never even goes out of tune. I purchased the guitar from Larry Wexer’s personal stash - and we both comment on how stable the instrument has been throughout our ownership.

The guitar was refretted by Norio Imai just prior to my purchase and plays like a dream.

It’s all original except for 1 replaced tuner and pick-guard. I rarely see any of these hit the market. This was a period where John was voicing his instruments to compete with the Loar L5’s, ….and the rest is history.

[Stringswinger]

All three of my DA's do not have adjustable truss rods and have no neck/action problems, though the restored 35 Excel did have a neck reset.

I do think that fires, floods, auto accidents, shipwrecks and war (surely a few might have been in Europe during WW2) have destroyed quite a few of these guitars (probably over 100), but most have survived and are (these days) well cared for. Even if 1100 have survived, they are a rare bird to be sure.

[sgcim]

A curator at the Met would not do that.

The curator didn't do the work; he farmed it off to various luthiers.

[sgcim]

I’ve owned my 35’ snakehead D’Angelico since 2010 and the neck hasn’t budged. In fact, it never even goes out of tune. I purchased the guitar from Larry Wexer’s personal stash - and we both comment on how stable the instrument has been throughout our ownership.

The guitar was refretted by Norio Imai just prior to my purchase and plays like a dream.

It’s all original except for 1 replaced tuner and pick-guard. I rarely see any of these hit the market. This was a period where John was voicing his instruments to compete with the Loar L5’s, ….and the rest is history.

We both have the same year and model D'A. I've never heard of Norio Imai, but he sounds very capable.
The friend I mentioned in my post in this thread who bought one of the the last D'As from John D., had a traumatic experience with Carlo Greco's re-fret on his D'A. He couldn't sleep for a month, and was in tears over what Greco did to his D'A's fret job. It was unplayable.
He had to turn to Flip Scipio to rectify the situation.
My experience wasn't as bad (I gave CG six months to work on a multitude of things, and not to call me until he had done everything he needed to do), but it could have been better.
I took it to Roger Borys, and he didn't see it as a disaster like my friend's experience (maybe because I gave CG six months and $500 to do the best he could), but he thought it needed a fret polishing.

Would you recommend Nono Imai for a set up and a fret job on my D'A? Could you give me a ballpark estimate on what he charges for work like that?
Thanks.

[AKA]

….. The curator it has been reported, was a bit more concerned with looks than sound.
How else would you explain the inclusion of one luthier whose guitars are beautiful works of art, but otherwise...

SGCIM - Are you referring to the exhibition featuring D’Angelico, D’Aquisto and Monteleone instruments?

[Litterick]

The curator didn't do the work; he farmed it off to various luthiers.

I very much doubt that happened. Museums have standards. Altering an object to make it 'pretty' would be considered unethical.

[omphalopsychos]

They have truss rods but they are not adjustable. I’ve never had any neck stability issues with mine. Mine was refretted by Norio Imai before I bought it from Larry Wexer also. I’ve seen a lot of frets and I have never seen better fretwork than Norio’s.

[wintermoon]

Guitar makers started using adjustable rods when Gibson's patent expired.

[Sleeko]

I thought Epiphone had the Thrust Rod back in the day but it adjusted from the other end.

[omphalopsychos]

I thought Epiphone had the Thrust Rod back in the day but it adjusted from the other end.

When Epiphone upsized their top of the line archtops to 17 3/8” in 1935 or 36, they introduced the adjustable trussrod under the fretboard extension. In the early 50s (52 or 53) Epiphone switched it to the headstock.

[QAman]

We both have the same year and model D'A. I've never heard of Norio Imai, but he sounds very capable.
The friend I mentioned in my post in this thread who bought one of the the last D'As from John D., had a traumatic experience with Carlo Greco's re-fret on his D'A. He couldn't sleep for a month, and was in tears over what Greco did to his D'A's fret job. It was unplayable.
He had to turn to Flip Scipio to rectify the situation.
My experience wasn't as bad (I gave CG six months to work on a multitude of things, and not to call me until he had done everything he needed to do), but it could have been better.
I took it to Roger Borys, and he didn't see it as a disaster like my friend's experience (maybe because I gave CG six months and $500 to do the best he could), but he thought it needed a fret polishing.

Would you recommend Nono Imai for a set up and a fret job on my D'A? Could you give me a ballpark estimate on what he charges for work like that?
Thanks.

Sgcim,
When it comes to working on high end D’Angelico’s you want to select a very competent repair technician / luthier. In the NY area, Nori Imai is considered one of the best for fretwork and setup, his cost for this service is around $1000-$1200, but worth every penny.


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[whiskey02]

I understand it that Martin guitars used a non adjustable T bar until the late 60/early 70's. Iirc it was pressure from customers who wanted a truss rod because other major makers had one, not because of any issue with them. I have read several repair guys on acoustic guitar forum mention that the T bar worked just fine. Jimmy D'Aquisto would try to get customers to refrain from having a truss rod. He also thought that inlays and non wood binding affected acoustic tone in a detrimental way.

[citizenk74]

When Epiphone upsized their top of the line archtops to 17 3/8” in 1935 or 36, they introduced the adjustable trussrod under the fretboard extension. In the early 50s (52 or 53) Epiphone switched it to the headstock.

My 1945 Zenith has the FBETR. Works fine.