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I am planning to rewire my thinline hollow archtop. It has two humbuckers, three way switch, and 2x volume and tone controls … standard Gibson style.
I want to warm up the guitar’s tone just a little, and was wondering if anyone has switched from 500/450k pots to 250k, and what that was like.
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07-22-2022 12:11 AM
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Yes, I have. I am a big fan of tweaking the volume pot value for darkening the guitar because it dampens the entire signal for a nice smoky sound rather than chopping off highs with the tone knob. 250k isn't that drastic of an effect on humbuckers, you still get chirp. I have even used an 100k volume, it sounds awesome for jazz. Another thing you can do is use 2 master no load tones with different cap values like 6.8nf and 18nf or 10nf and 22nf so you have a dark tone and a lighter tone.
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Dull, with most humbuckers.
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I would experiment with different values of bleeding caps. Or even build a varitone!
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Basically a 250k volume isn't that aggressive of a mod for a hb jazz guitar, as you still get the full range of sound with chirp on top. It just sounds slightly fatter and smokier. So yes, you can absolutely do that. 100k is the point where it hardwires in a fat sound. What you can do is alligator clip in resistors in parallel with the jack and ground to see what value you like.
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The problem is when you get into a situation where you need more highs, if that ever happens. Highs tend to disappear in gig situations, they get masked , and you may need more highs to cut through, even if jazz.
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I've always used 500K CTS pots & .047UF orange drop caps for my Lindy Fralin Pure PAF'S which adorn my three guitars (Neck=7.7-7.8k)!
My tone knob is somewhere in the middle with ample room for more highs & lows! Just my experience!
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You get 250kOhms from a 500kOhm pot when it's at 50%. Or thereabouts, within 20% or so. But 250k is somewhere in there. Changing to a higher capacitance (read cheaper, preferably coiled) cable will do more, IMO. You can also change the tone capacitor for a bigger one, or do both.
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Concur.
Originally Posted by bluejaybill
Most of the time, for most of the people, the knobs which shape perfect tones for the particular gig are on your amp.
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Good living room tone and good gig tone are very different, IME. I find myself having to use a much brighter tone on gigs than I could even stand in my living room. Especially once the drummer gets going, the cymbals tend to wash the highs out of the guitar sound and then you're also competing with the horns on that end of the spectrum (and the bass on the other end).
So it also depends upon the OP's purpose in chasing his or her tone.
I find at home I like to run the volume knob on the guitar at between 5-8 on my humbucker guitars, which knocks down some of the high frequencies by itself. Then adjusting the tone knob to taste; I find that I tend to like it right at the "shoulder" of the rolloff provided by the tone pot. Further adjustments can be made at the amp.
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Also with the 1000’s of audience at any regular gig the highs get eaten up much much more than the lows. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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You could alway put in two pots with a switch, or button to choose which one. I have a guitar that has a stacked tone control so my neck and middle SC PUs can see a different value then my bridge HB. It works great.
However overall, my experiments in the on board guitar stuff, seems to never really work well. (... excluding PU swaps). It becomes extra and not useful most of the time. I tend to just use pedals. For example I have a germanium three band eq, that can really make a difference. I also have the JHS Clover pedal. Bringing along a pedal or two never really seems difficult.
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Indeed, back when I was playing in the quintet we would regularly have to ask the massive audience to stop absorbing so many highs. Originally Posted by Eck
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If you play with your volume and tone on 10, then there is an audible difference. If you have the controls usually less than 10, the lower you usually have the controls, the less the pot value change will make a difference.
Also, as suggested, you might want to try a different size tone capacitor, because, I presume you don't like what the tone knob currently does to the sound, otherwise you would not be posting the question.
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I tend to run my tone control fully open, or close, and use the amp's controls. I also like to run the guitar volume down around 50%. The higher the frequency, the quicker it is attenuated by distance, so what sounds very trebly just in front of the amp sounds less so 10 or 20 feet away. I agree that the ideal sound is different in the bedroom and in a gig situation. But if you're not gigging, it's fine to go with whatever tone you like. But I still think the place to start for adjusting the tone is at the amp.
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Yes.. guitar full open. Still, I find most amp EQ sections are generally less than great. And trying to achieve what you want with cap values is counterproductive. Just use a decent EQ pedal. Empress ParaEQ comes to mind though it's been awhile since I shopped for a good EQ. If you can't get the sound you want using effective EQ, a tweak like the cap is unlikely get you there.
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I find the Brute eq a brilliant eq. Simple and effective!
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A 250k volume with a no load tone will not be short on top end cut for necessary situations. It's more optimized for jazz imo. Again, 100k is where it gets fat like Pat Martino, not really 250k.
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Its the clothes that muffles most, so I encourage removal of those Originally Posted by Eck
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I don’t think that’s correct. None of the formulae for sound pressure, sound intensity, sound density etc over distance includes frequency. Highs are damped (“absorbed”) by soft, irregular surfaces and materials because those surfaces do not reflect them as completely as do hard smooth surfaces. So the highs in ambient sound will be less intense compared to lower frequencies out in a carpeted room full of clothed people. But the directly radiated sound from the instruments and amplification will contain the same sonic spectrum at any distance in an anechoic room devoid of sound absorbing or reflecting materials and objects. Originally Posted by sgosnell
Here’s an excellent explanation of how different materials affect frequency distribution.
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There are always objects in the path of the sound. We don't live in empty outer space, nor in anechoic rooms. Elephants use subsonic (to us) communication over many miles. Birds can't do that. The sound from the cars with thousand watt amps in them, driven along the street by soon to be deaf kids, has all the treble filtered out by the time it penetrates the walls of my bedroom, all I hear is the earth-shaking bass. And the people way in the back of a large room hear somewhat diminished higher frequencies, regardless of what the formulae say.
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I've had pot values in Gibson guitars range from 190K to 350k stock, and wondered why it sounded like a blanket was thrown into the mix. Not happy with that, I changed to 500K pots, especially when some of the pots were defective.
That brightened the tone. And brought out some valuable frequencies/harmonics.
I'd rather start with a brighter tone, then roll the pots back for the tone I wanted to hear. I.E. I leave the tone pot on 10, but rolling the volume down to 7-8, cuts sharper top end while leaving fat and juicy, alive fundamental tones.
I think that too much talk is wasted on changing values. (and it's too much work- rather be practicing making music). Turn the dials, lower the pickups, get a good cable that doesn't squash you tone so when you do turn back the volume knob, you still have tone to work with.
I hope this makes sense, and saves you a lot of work! Good luck.
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Can someone explain in extremely simple language why a 100k pot would sound different than a 250k pot rolled off to 100k?
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Your signal path is always dumping to ground through the resistor element of the pot, no matter where the pot wiper is positioned. So, even at 100%, you are losing signal through the pot to ground. The higher the value of the pot (like 1 Meg) the brighter and louder the pickup will be when at 100%. And visa-versa.
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The enlightening experiment is to: wire your pickup directly to the output jack (no interference from volume or tone pots).
Just pickup, cord, jack and cord to amp. You may love the tone....or not, but that is the tone of your guitar and your pickup of choice.
At this point, you can: dial in the tone on your amp, or change the cord to guitar (many will alter the tone). But you can also change the pickup....or, put the tone control back into the circuit, OR put the volume pot back in the circuit. That's where you'll find your differences.
I loved the tone of my L5 with a Seymour D. '59 p/up without any pots. I also loved the Seth Lover p/up. I did not like the stock pickup any more in this setup. I knew then that I would want functioning volume and tone pots on the guitar (stock).
So, I installed 500K pots, and learned to dial in the tone I like. Tone on 10, and volume on 7-8. Fantastic.
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