A preview of some nifty contours

**Jim Soloway** · 05-01-2022, 03:26 PM

Coming "reasonably soon" ...
A preview of some nifty contours-prototypeback-jpg

**cmajor9** · 05-01-2022, 03:33 PM

Looks promising - and intriguing…

**JohanAbrandt** · 05-01-2022, 03:36 PM

Nice

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 05-01-2022, 04:17 PM

Ummmmm - it's missing a string, Jim

A preview of some nifty contours-chicken_impatient-gif

**marcwhy** · 05-01-2022, 04:31 PM

Very nifty! Can't wait for your "full disclosure" on the new models/company!

**citizenk74** · 05-01-2022, 05:27 PM

Watching this space with interest....

**Bluedawg** · 05-01-2022, 06:08 PM

**Woody Sound** · 05-02-2022, 06:29 AM

Lookin good! (Just don't let Zucker see the scarf joint.)

**Jim Soloway** · 05-02-2022, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by Woody Sound

Lookin good! (Just don't let Zucker see the scarf joint.)

That's a Warmoth neck that we're using for testing. The actual neck is one piece.

**Cunamara** · 05-02-2022, 08:31 AM

Nothing wrong with a scarf joint, they result in a stronger neck and they waste a lot less wood. It's an issue as luthier grade wood supplies dwindle and increase in cost and environmental damage.

**Jim Soloway** · 05-02-2022, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

Nothing wrong with a scarf joint, they result in a stronger neck and they waste a lot less wood. It's an issue as luthier grade wood supplies dwindle and increase in cost and environmental damage.

The problem with a scarf joint is that they create a marketing issue. Sadly, when you're trying to sell short runs of instruments for premium prices, not having to explain and convince can be the difference between survival and failure.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 05-02-2022, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

Nothing wrong with a scarf joint, they result in a stronger neck

I don’t agree with you on this, C. There are many studies of scarf joint design, bonding etc and none shows the overall strength of the structure to exceed that of an otherwise identical one piece version. It’s true that the wood may break before the bond with a very few adhesives and methods, but that’s still no stronger than the one piece version.

The problem with scarf joints is that each one is an interface, and therefore a mechanical impedance mismatch between components. The joint is never as solid or effective a vibration conductor as no joint, and any intervening adhesive or other material will act both as a vibration damper and a mechanical transformer. The efficiency of that transformer is determined by the physical characteristics of the adhesive, how it is integrated into the mating surfaces, and how the joint is designed (eg angles, number of steps etc).

String vibration energy is transferred to the body at the nut & bridge. The neck is functionally part of the body, since the two are theoretically a solid unit. Any discontinuity affects transmission of string energy and can affect the harmonic structure. Unless you find that the neck is irrelevant to this and they all sound alike, and/or you believe that bolt-on and neck-through sound alike (which many do hold as true), that scarf joint could affect the sound of the guitar, especially acoustically (and electrically, if you believe that the body affects what comes out of the pickups).

**Sam Sherry** · 05-02-2022, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

Nothing wrong with a scarf joint, they result in a stronger neck and they waste a lot less wood. It's an issue as luthier grade wood supplies dwindle and increase in cost and environmental damage.

Respect, but that's a maple neck.

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

The problem with a scarf joint is that they create a marketing issue.

Word!

Eager to see more as soon as there's more to show.

**JohanAbrandt** · 05-02-2022, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit

I don’t agree with you on this, C. There are many studies of scarf joint design, bonding etc and none shows the overall strength of the structure to exceed that of an otherwise identical one piece version. It’s true that the wood may break before the bond with a very few adhesives and methods, but that’s still no stronger than the one piece version.

The problem with scarf joints is that each one is an interface, and therefore a mechanical impedance mismatch between components. The joint is never as solid or effective a vibration conductor as no joint, and any intervening adhesive or other material will act both as a vibration damper and a mechanical transformer. The efficiency of that transformer is determined by the physical characteristics of the adhesive, how it is integrated into the mating surfaces, and how the joint is designed (eg angles, number of steps etc).

String vibration energy is transferred to the body at the nut & bridge. The neck is functionally part of the body, since the two are theoretically a solid unit. Any discontinuity affects transmission of string energy and can affect the harmonic structure. Unless you find that the neck is irrelevant to this and they all sound alike, and/or you believe that bolt-on and neck-through sound alike (which many do hold as true), that scarf joint could affect the sound of the guitar, especially acoustically (and electrically, if you believe that the body affects what comes out of the pickups).

Wood splits with the grain so for a neck with a tilted headstock, the one piece will be weaker than a jointed. How much depends on the angle.

I dont think most luthiers has even seen a broken neck unless it was on one piece mahogny neck on gibson (or a copy)

**jads57** · 05-02-2022, 12:03 PM

Well I see Jim S point about contentious Scarf Joint discussions and
SALES of a higher end guitar, Lol!

**Jim Soloway** · 05-02-2022, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by JohanAbrandt

Wood splits with the grain so for a neck with a tilted headstock, the one piece will be weaker than a jointed. How much depends on the angle.

I dont think most luthiers has even seen a broken neck unless it was on one piece mahogny neck on gibson (or a copy)

I've only experienced on broken neck in my life and that neck happened to have a scarf joint ... on the other hand it had been hit dead on by the time of a fast moving Fedex fork lift. That thing was hot so hard that entire packing box was bent in half and the case was broken into two pieces. Somehow I don't think the method of neck construction really had an influence on the outcome

**Jim Soloway** · 05-02-2022, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

Well I see Jim S point about contentious Scarf Joint discussions and
SALES of a higher end guitar, Lol!

I've learned the hard way that there are two things that will probably result in commercial failure: the need for a complex explanation and the need to convince someone that what they believe is wrong. I'm sure there are exceptions to both of those but I don't think I'm smart enough to get past either of those two.

**skykomishone** · 05-02-2022, 01:09 PM

Jim,
that sounds like a reasonable understanding to me!

**JohanAbrandt** · 05-02-2022, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I've only experienced on broken neck in my life and that neck happened to have a scarf joint ... on the other hand it had been hit dead on by the time of a fast moving Fedex fork lift. That thing was hot so hard that entire packing box was bent in half and the case was broken into two pieces. Somehow I don't think the method of neck construction really had an influence on the outcome

Ah, yes, I hope it was a bolt on =)

Anyhow, I am sure you can make a one piece strong enough to avoid warranty problems, and theres no denying that a one piece looks nice.

**Jim Soloway** · 05-02-2022, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by JohanAbrandt

Ah, yes, I hope it was a bolt on =)

Anyhow, I am sure you can make a one piece strong enough to avoid warranty problems, and theres no denying that a one piece looks nice.

It was and they hit it so hard that not only did the neck snap, but the bridge ripped out of the body as well. Final score: Fork Lift 1, guitar 0.

And yes, a one-piece maple neck with a gentle title back is easily strong enough. We shipped about 350 of them and the only one that broke went down a full flight of stairs head first with no case.

**Woody Sound** · 05-02-2022, 02:27 PM

I was joking about the scarf neck (see the smiley) because JAZ has a thing about them.

**Greentone** · 05-02-2022, 03:06 PM

I agree with Jim. In fact, in today's climate I believe it is getting harder and harder to convince people that something they believe is correct is wrong.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 05-02-2022, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Woody Sound

I was joking about the scarf neck (see the smiley) because JAZ has a thing about them.

How about a nice neck scarf?

A preview of some nifty contours-scarf-jpg

**mr. beaumont** · 05-02-2022, 05:12 PM

Well, this is exciting.

**EastwoodMike** · 05-02-2022, 05:36 PM

@nevershouldhavesoldit , I see reasoning to your point but can I just ask

String vibration energy is transferred to the body at the nut & bridge. The neck is functionally part of the body, since the two are theoretically a solid unit. Any discontinuity affects transmission of string energy and can affect the harmonic structure.

Would this only be an issue for notes whose terminal node points (bridge to nut) fall beyond the scarf location? Any fretted note from say 3rd fret up would not vibrate through the scarf?

I’ve also often wondered about the neck to body joins- making a perfectly fitting tapered dovetail is manually very hard. Lots of planes held by glue there. A bolt on neck relies in transmission through the bolts and any interference fit alone!

EMike