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Hello All
I’ve been playing a Les Paul exclusively for the past 4 years. For quite some time now I’ve had 12 gauge strings on it. They feel tight and heavy. Like they’re practically made of concrete (which I like very much).
2 weeks ago I bought a Gretsch G100ce acoustic arch top (with floating pick up) and yet even with the same strings on it, I feel like I’m playing rubber bands. 12 gauge, flats easily bend up a whole step on the G string. And for the 1st time since my rock n roll days when I played 10 or 9 gauge round wounds, I feel as if I could - if I pushed just a bit further (which I could easily do) I may well break a string or damage the fragile feeling guitar. If I don’t play with a somewhat lighter touch than I’m accustomed to, I also tend to accidentally pull the 1st or 6th string off the neck when making a rapid fret jump. In general, I have to play with a much lighter touch or the strings feel like they’re vibrating too much and it feels sloppy in a way it absolutely does not on the Les Paul no mater how hard I slam that plectrum. Yet the Gretsch has a LONGER 25.5 scale length!
The necks are fairly similar I would say. In fact specs claim they have the same nut width, yet I am near certain there is more space between the strings of the Gretsch. Perhaps this contributes to some extent, to the feeling that the strings are thinner and more easily bendable. I don’t know. I’ve never owned an acoustic arch top and only briefly once owned a modern Epiphone Broadway. The string on the Broadway did not feel this loose by a long shot.
I guess I want to know: What other factors could be contributing to this? And will a set of say, 14 gauge strings improve my situation or is it perhaps the nature of the guitar itself?
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04-21-2022 12:27 PM
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if the Les Paul has no set-up, and the distance from the first fret to the strings is too big, it could feel quite stiff.
if the Gretsch has a pretty set-up, it might feel much better.
if the Gretsch has a tailpiece, that might contribute to the feeling as well.
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For the same gauge, if you have a longer scale, you'll have to increase the tension to reach the same pitch.
BUT
the feeling you get for the tension is also depending on the total length of string, between nut and bridge PLUS behing nut and behind bridge (to the tailpiece)
So if you compare this kind of length between your LP and the Gretsch, in spite of the scale difference, the overall length is greater on the Gretsch, leading to more flexibility, hence your feeling of "tension" looking lower.
Try 13's.
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The LP has a stop tailpiece. That makes the feel stiffer than with a trapeze-style tailpiece. Total string length makes a difference, because longer strings are easier to stretch, and you stretch the string when you fret it, albeit very slightly. Action height also makes a difference, especially nut slot height. A high nut makes the string much harder to fret. Almost all factory-built guitars come with the nut much too high, and need work to make them playable. Combine a high nut with a stop tailpiece, and you get a guitar with stiff action. If the bridge is also high, it's even worse. A proper setup can make a huge difference in feel and playability. Get rid of the stop tailpiece, and it's even better.
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I’ve had similar issues with different guitars. Just go up gauges until the strings feel right to you.
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Related question - exactly what happens to tension (not *feel*) if you go from a pin/tie bridge to a floating saddle with tailpiece, when the string length remains the same? Logically speaking the relationship between string unit weight, scale length, tension and resulting pitch should still sound, but the tension should also be equal both sides of the saddle - so the amount of string between saddle and tailpiece doesn't matter?
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Hi Van,
Watch this video and play with the tension calculator; if you like the tension on the LP (I'm assuming 24.75" scale?), see what gauge string can "match" it with the Gretsch!
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I'm guessing the LP needs some attention paid to the nut.
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Rock players like Duane Allman always use wrap the stings over their tailpiece ( backwards string through) for a lighter tension. This way you could still lower the stop bar all the way to the body for extra sustain as well.
If all else fails, try some Dunlop 11-50 Heavy Core strings. I use thes on a Benedetto Bambino with a Bigsby and it solves the problem for me!
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The tension for a particular string at a particular pitch is determined by the scale length, from the nut to the saddle. The rest of the string doesn't affect the actual tension. It does, however, affect the perceived tension, or feel.
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I do the over-wrap to give the edge of my hand a nice comfy platform allowing me to effortlessly shift from light palm muting to free ringing sustain. I think getting the stop-bar all the way down reduces over-ring and slightly enhances sustain.
Originally Posted by jads57
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I used to think it really mattered. But I guess depends on the guitar and other factors as well. It sure looked Cool!
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Someone pointed out in a previous thread that what the hands feel isn’t the string tension, it’s the compliance or stiffness (inverse of compliance) as the strings are moved side to side. Two setups can have identical tension, but very different compliance. The length of strings beyond the nut and bridge will affect compliance, as does the presence of a vibrato mechanism. The height of action might affect compliance too—I haven’t thought that one through. Originally Posted by sgosnell
For more:
Stiffness - Wikipedia
and this
https://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm
One could calculate the the force one must exert and the transverse distance per semitone when bending a guitar string in various configurations and compare them, but it looks a bit messy. You’d need to know the Young’s modulus of the string which is around 200 GPa for nickel or steel. It drops to around 3.0 for nylon.
Young's modulus - Wikipedia
Anyone want to take a crack at it? ;-)
(The friction of the string as it stretches against the nut and bridge slots could be factors too.)Last edited by KirkP; 04-22-2022 at 11:55 PM.
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The amount of relief also affects the feel.
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Relief does affect the feel to some extent, which is one reason why I like none. The friction of the nut and saddle probably contributes to the feel, but it's difficult to calculate. I would posit that guitars with wide headstocks, which create more acute bends in the string at the nut, have a somewhat stiffer feel than those with a straighter string pull, but other factors are also involved, so it's hard to say. Everything is interconnected and complicated.
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I can imagine that having a smooth increase in string height from nut to saddle feels more natural, but how can you get clean sound like that? AFAIK even the violin family instruments have a very faint amount of relief, which is shaved into the fingerboard. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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It's easier to get clean sounds at every fret with no relief than with it, at least IME. With relief, the frets near the end of the fretboard are higher than the center of the neck, and start to buzz when the strings are fretted near or above the 12th fret. I don't know much about violins, but I do know that they have no frets to cause buzzes. On a purely acoustic archtop, which is going to be played very hard, mostly on the lower or mid frets, some relief can help. I don't play that way.
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