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Hello, first post here! I’m hoping the good folks of this forum can help me with a question I have.
What are the factors that help the higher treble strings, especially B and E, sound fat when played with bare fingers? I have a new Strat strung with standard .10-.46 roundwound strings. I feel the higher strings just sound kind of bleh and uninspiring when picked with bare fingers.
Now, I know it's unrealistic expect legit archtop sound from a Strat...but I'm trying to understand what could help make the high strings better for fingerstyle using just the flesh of the fingers. When I listen to Joe Pass playing fingerstyle for example, every single string has a deep, rich sound. Obviously there are a bunch of factors that I can think of may help:
- larger string gauge
- flatwounds
- hollow or semi-hollow body
- humbuckers instead of single coils
- maybe action?
Any suggestions for what you think helps with getting a fat sound with bare fingers on electric are appreciated!! I just want the bottom strings to sound actually decent when fingerpicking on my Strat. Take a pick to it and it sounds fine.
Thanks everyone!
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02-12-2022 02:17 PM
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Hi FP18, and welcome.
From my experience, the 1st string always sounds thin compared to the rest, even when using a pick. In many cases I have replaced the 0.10 string with (at the least/most) a 0.11. Solid bodies and semi-hollows! So who says you can't use a 0.12?
Even on a classical guitar with fat nylon strings, and finger picking, the 1st string is the thinnest. I just returned an expensive classical guitar because the notes on the upper frets of the 1st string just didn't have the sonic "rring" that is essential.
keep experimenting, and keep playing! Best of luck in your search.
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Technique is a huge part of it. With skinny strings, turn the volume up and pick more lightly (with light strings, some fret slap happens easily and chokes the notes). I use 11-50 nickel roundwound strings on my Strat- and Tele-shaped objects. On my flattop and my archtop I use Martin Retro monel strings, 11-52.
I find using short nails (about 1 mm from the quick) rather than classical length nails yields a better electric tone; very smoothly buffing the nail edges also helps. The tone has more flesh and is less bright. Rob McKillop has a YouTube video about playing classical guitar without nails that I found helpful for electric tone. I use mostly i-m alternation for lines, p-i-m-a for chords. Like Joe Pass, lines on the bass strings are usually played with my thumb- which is about all my playing has in common with Joe Pass!
Also notice Joe's position with the guitar- almost vertical, even more than a classical guitarist, which IME improves the right hand angle to the strings while keeping the picking wrist straighter.
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get another guitar
( and stop opening the same thread at different boards at the same time, I think it is bad behaviour )
( how much attention do you really need ?? )
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This is important. We don't want the plain strings to sound thin, plinky or being affected by mechanical buzzing.
It's a matter of setup, playing technique amp and tone settings. String gauge is not the prime factor, even though the higher tension of heavy strings makes the setup less sensitive to variation in plucking force.
As general rule of thumb you would need some neck relief to let the strings swing, the lighter the strings, the more relief is required.
You also need sufficient down force on the bridge to get enough tension/stiffness/resistance in the strings for your plucking hand. This is a function of bridge height, truss rod tension and string gauge.
You need to eliminate any source of mechanical buzzing.
You need to adjust the pickups and use the volume and tone controls of the guitar.
You need a good amp and speaker and set the tone of your amp like this:
Reduce bass and treble, boost mids.
Good luck
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Cunamara's post above was very up to the point! Try picking these strings with different fingers, one at a time. If your tone is weaker when using the fourth, or even the third finger, you've found a whole area to work on.
I also use short nails, and try to play softly enough, so that the notes don't fret out (heavier strings help me with that, but I've been playing 12s and 13s for years, so it's just me).
When playing fingerstyle, a lot of the dynamics come from the instrument (in the case of a great acoustic or classical guitar), so when playing electrics, they are much more limited compared to playing with a pick, before the sound gets bad.
Also don't overlook playing chords fingerstyle, meaning locking all fingers together instead of arpeggiating one after the other. I've found it very helpful in developing good sound and finger posture. Fingerstyle is a very detailed approach, you have to pay great attention to details, the way you plant the fingers, hit and release the string, etc. It takes time..
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Before Joe Pass cut his first solo record which featured him playing without a pick he had already been doing this for a couple of years if not more. It takes A LOT OF PRACTICE, diligence and determination to attain a „good“ tone on any type of guitar (whether you’re using a pick or fingers) and the free stroke (tirando) is the most difficult of them all. On a thin string you need even more micro-motoric skill so you should start there and switch to an at least 0.11 set.
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FiggyPudding18: Welcome to the forum, where most people have the first E string .012 or thicker!
There is a lot of players who mix different gauges so You can experience with thicker B & E strings. On a Strat You can lower them individually too, the thicker strings don’t start buzzing as easy as thinner ones.
I play with humbuckers and P90s and they have adjustable pole screws. Sometimes adjusting them makes a huge difference.
The plain strings are plain strings with flat wound sets too, so what matters more is the material of the strings. Many like that nickel is warmer than steel, for example.
You can have plain strings sound thick with a Strat too.
Filmosound: Is being rude to a forum newcomer good behaviour? I haven’t seen this thread anywhere else. And maybe the asker just wants many answers to his/her problem.
Originally Posted by Filmosound 621
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I second what was said about higher gauge strings and using short nails. When I fingerpick on an electric, I kind of use a claw position—not the more vertical classical position. I can dig in if I want to.
If fingerstyle is going to be your thing, you may want to look at a hollow body. The Godin Kingpin is IMO perfectly suited to fingerstyle playing. It has the most “classical” feel of any guitar I have, though the neck is fairly narrow.
A hybrid nylon string is also not a bad choice.
That said, many well-known players play a solid body using their fingertips not nails (as far as I know). Mark Knopfler, Derek Trucks and Lindsay Buckingham come to mind. They have no trouble getting great tone. I’m sure setup helps, not to mention heavy overdrive, but it’s still all in the fingers.
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This has great value and utility, even if you usually use a pick. Sounding multiple notes together has a different feel when the attack on all is truly simultaneous. Especially for solo playing, it’s another expressive tool to be used along with arpeggiated chords both picked and plucked. Originally Posted by Alter
I find fingerstyle chording to produce a fuller sound for comping with a bass. As I’ve said before, well integrated bass and guitar sound like one big stringed instrument when this is done well. With practice, it’s also easy to pluck multiple notes in rapid sequence to get an effect similar to picking a chord.
Picked chords are arpeggiated, no matter how quickly the strings are stroked, and it obviously sounds great in the hands of players with faultless timing who place their chords well within the rhythm. But beginning the stroke right on the beat blurs that rhythmic chunk against bass and drums, because the full sound doesn’t start immediately with the stroke - it’s very slightly smeared and delayed by the time required to get the strings vibrating and propagate the sound waves they generate. This is why many who only dabble at rhythm playing don’t sound quite right. Most top rhythm players lead the beat very, very slightly when walking 1/4 notes (especially at faster tempos). With fingerstyle comping, each chord is tight and can be placed more precisely.
And I keep my nails short. I’ve never liked the sound or feel of picking with my fingernails.
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A 10 gauge string with low action amplified with a Strat single coil pickup will never sound as fat as a 12 gauge string through a humbucker, but it can sound good and balanced. The key is technique. If plectrum playing on that Strat is fine on all strings, but fingerstyle is not, it sure sounds like the finger(s) used on the high E is the weak link in the chain. Either more attack is needed on that string or less attack is called for on the others.
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WTF, man. The OP can ask the question wherever and whenever. Who made you the Internet police? Originally Posted by Filmosound 621
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Here are some apropos videos, not necessarily specifically about fingerstyle on a Strat (although a couple are about Strats) but applicable.
I think one of the themes there is to turn the amp up, roll the guitar volume and tone down a little bit to fatten up the sound and pick lightly. Let the amp do the heavy lifting. I mostly practice acoustically and I find that I tend to overplay electric guitars as a result. I am used to getting volume with my hands and for electric jazz guitar that can be counterproductive.
I should note that I don't duplicate the tone I get with a pick using my fingers. I have decided that's OK and that variety is nice. Sometimes I play with a pick, often I don't. When I play with the pick, it is a hybrid style inspired strongly by Ed Bickert (and also Bob Weir) but nowhere near that level of proficiency nor with that outstanding tone (Ed's, not Bob's. As much as I love Bob's playing, I don't like his clangy "cold steel" tone that he espouses).
There are also a lot of pretty good fingerstyle jazz guitar tutorial videos on YouTube.Last edited by Cunamara; 02-13-2022 at 03:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by FiggyPudding18
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I have been a rude boy in my youth, Vespa cut down and all. Originally Posted by Herbie
Doesn't the Strat sound thin by design ? hasn't that been one of Leo's goals on his quest to fight disortion ?
Time to get another guitar, the Gibson ES-125 is a good start, it sure has been for me.
happy rude-free week to all.
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Jim Soloway is your man for this question in my opinion! Check out his audio clips here in the forums.
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Check out Lorne Lofsky playing an Ibanez Strat-style guitar- with his fingers…..
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I think you should ignore Filmosound 621 and work on your technique.
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Not just for a better sound, but for anything! Originally Posted by Filmosound 621
Bad day at the office?
Get another guitar!
Girlfriend cheating?
Get another guitar!
When the dog bites?
Get another guitar!
When the bee stings?
Get another guitar!
When I'm feeling bad...
I simply remember my Reverb account,
And then I don't feel
So bad!!!
Don't be glum and don't worry about actually sounding GOOD playing it, just get that next guitar
GAS
NGD
Get your guitar and come to the forum and complain if it doesn't wind up being the perfect solution. A lot of people find this works!
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The modern way of thinking is to find a pedal, to add to one's pedalboard, to compensate for any deficiency in technique.
On some other forums, members never ask about playing better. They ask about pedals that will make their tone better. When confronted with a player of great talent, they wonder what pedals he is using.
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Yeah… my tone sucks!
Pick differently?
never popular
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Harsh, plinky unwound strings are like nails on a blackboard to me. Unbearable. I gave up on flat-top acoustics because of it and if I hadn’t found a way to deal with it, I’d have given up on guitar altogether.
Almost everything that matters has already been mentioned here. In addition to all those great tips:
-To my ears, rosewood fingerboards make the unwound strings sound woodier and less spikey, but the immediacy of ebony or maple adds treble so I really have to watch out how hard I pluck the string.
-The quality of the fretwork really matters. Expert crowning and levelling will make a big difference.
-The overall quality of a guitar matters, i.e. there are guitars that just sound good no matter what and these tend to be more high-end. My solidbody PRS McCarthy 594 is strung with 10s without a hint of harshness, even with the tone all the way up. On other guitars, rolling down the tone control to make the unwound strings sound good results in muddy, lifeless wound strings, so it’s a compromise. With a really good guitar it doesn’t have to be a compromise.
-Acoustics (either semi’s, flat-tops or archtops) are all prone to spikey unwound strings, i.e. in itself the hollow body is no guarantee for good tone on those strings. Some acoustics are so spikey that my teeth shatter. To my ears, the same ’rules’ apply: rosewood, stellar fretwork and a guitar good enough so there’s no compromise between wound and unwound strings; the thing should just make you play and forget it’s there.
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I agree, a good guitar (and fresh strings) will make a difference. Largely because sound will just pop out, so you get used to playing softly and effortlessly, which are basics for good fingerstyle tone. A good guitar will also sound even and rich on the treble strings, so again you're building right technique.
Even just playing the instrument for a while helps. As the guitar vibrates, its sound will improve, kind of like waking up over a couple of weeks.
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I think partly it is a setup of course- I am not sure about Joe Pass... on some records he sounds almost unamplified (and I do not always like it)... Originally Posted by FiggyPudding18
But definitely if you play electric guitar at relatively high volume - everything will come out easier...
But it is also the touch...
As I play renaissance and baroque lutes i mostly apply the same plucking technique on guitars now.
This kind of touch - if used correctly - makes the tone much more fundamental, deep and rich... both on acoustic and electric guitar
I can try to make a short demonstration video if you wish
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Actually Joe Pass used short fingernails on his right hand, you can see them in this photo (from a guitar magazine). Originally Posted by FiggyPudding18
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